Author Topic: Spitfire Mk IX - stability issues (Read 3349 times)

VO101_Isegrim · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2004, 07:44:06 AM »

Guppy, you might want to check out Ring`s site, there are lenghty reports on those bob weights.

http://prodocs.netfirms.com/

Angie, you don`t need to read those, you have your anecdotal evidence that proves the Spit is better in everything, ROFLOL.

Angus · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2004, 09:31:40 AM »

I've got Quills book.
I also have the autobiography of Tony Bartley, who worked as a test pilot together with Quill, and was one of the first to analyze the problem. A rare book that one.
Those two pretty much sum it up. The Spit IX did not suffer from these problems any more, - this was tied up with a line of the MkV model and got analyzed and cured.

Bartley was quite an interesting pilot. A veteran of BoB and a test pilot, he was a very active pilot in the N-African theater as the Sqn-Ldr of the famous 111. An excellent tactician, he developed some nice tactics against the LW's 190's (led by Heinz Bar?) which totally outperformed the Trop-Mk V Spitfires at the time.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 06, 2004, 01:52:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
I've got Quills book.
I also have the autobiography of Tony Bartley, who worked as a test pilot together with Quill, and was one of the first to analyze the problem. A rare book that one.
Those two pretty much sum it up. The Spit IX did not suffer from these problems any more, - this was tied up with a line of the MkV model and got analyzed and cured.

Bartley was quite an interesting pilot. A veteran of BoB and a test pilot, he was a very active pilot in the N-African theater as the Sqn-Ldr of the famous 111. An excellent tactician, he developed some nice tactics against the LW's 190's (led by Heinz Bar?) which totally outperformed the Trop-Mk V Spitfires at the time.

I don't have that book in my library sad to say. Sound like I'll have to go hunting for it

My best 'primary source" is a former B of B vet and Supermarine service test pilot named Clive Gosling. He's mentioned in Quill's book as well. When I first started hunting Spit XII info back in 81-82, his was the first letter to arrive in the mail box, ironically on my wedding day. I'm not sure what was more exciting

He put up with a lot of dumb questions over the years and I've got a huge file full of his responses. Needless to say a real thrill to correspond with him for all these years. Had the chance to have dinner with him at the RAF club in London too way back when. Someday I'll get back to England again.

Too many of those guys leaving us sad to say. Image is Clive at work in DP845 the Spit XII prototype

Dan/Slack

Crumpp · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2004, 02:01:32 PM »

Make sure you pass on our thanks, Dan. Guys like him literally saved the world.

Crumpp

Guppy35 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2004, 02:08:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
Make sure you pass on our thanks, Dan. Guys like him literally saved the world.

Crumpp

Thanked many times over. And if it sounds like there's a bit of hero worship involved here, you aren't mistaken

Dan/Slack

mw · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2004, 02:48:40 PM »

Angus, do you have the title and ISBN # for that book?

Cool Guppy, ya lucky dog

Nice pic too! (Report on that aircraft at my sig btw)

Angus · « **Reply #21 on:** September 06, 2004, 05:38:08 PM »

I got that book at Motorbooks in London. They have a .com website. They are on a side street off Charing cross road, very near to St.Martins.
Lucky me got their last copy, and even autographed!
I think they'd be able to get a copy for you, they are rather nice.
ISBN: 0-947554-63-7

Guppy: Are you British (did I ask you before?), and if so, whereabouts in the Island do you live?

Tony Bartley actually got married to actress Deborah Kerr. One of the wedding guests is someone who's autobiography I also have, - i.e. Geoffrey Page.

I higly recommend his book, "Shot down in Flames" as well as Tony Jonsson's Book "Dancing in the skies".
(Tony flew quite a bit together with Bartley in 111, N-Africa. He once showed me a letter from Bartley actually)

About the stability issue, Bartley has a short episode about this. Mail me at burns@isholf.is and I'll scan it and mail it to you guppy

Guppy35 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 06, 2004, 08:14:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
I got that book at Motorbooks in London. They have a .com website. They are on a side street off Charing cross road, very near to St.Martins.
Lucky me got their last copy, and even autographed!
I think they'd be able to get a copy for you, they are rather nice.
ISBN: 0-947554-63-7

Guppy: Are you British (did I ask you before?), and if so, whereabouts in the Island do you live?

Tony Bartley actually got married to actress Deborah Kerr. One of the wedding guests is someone who's autobiography I also have, - i.e. Geoffrey Page.

I higly recommend his book, "Shot down in Flames" as well as Tony Jonsson's Book "Dancing in the skies".
(Tony flew quite a bit together with Bartley in 111, N-Africa. He once showed me a letter from Bartley actually)

About the stability issue, Bartley has a short episode about this. Mail me at burns@isholf.is and I'll scan it and mail it to you guppy

Just a wannabe Yank in the RAF, Angus

Spent a semester of college in London in 1980 and really got hooked on Spits and the RAF then. Started the Spit XII research and back to England in 86 for the 41 Squadron Reunion. Ongoing passion since then.

I have Page's book among many others. Seems like the RAF guys wrote the most biographies

Dan/Slack

Charge · « **Reply #23 on:** September 07, 2004, 03:35:24 AM »

Tell me where I got it wrong:

Spit
The Spitfire was "unstable" because of very light elevator and heavy ailerons in certain speed. This means that in slow speed the elevator control wasn't overly sensitive but provided good feeling of the state of flight and with wash-out features of the wing the warning of a stall was good and the a/c could be pulled into an overly stalled condition where the a/c could be "flared" on its wingtips (this also made it easy to land except that soft damping of the wheels made it easy to ground loop) .

As the speed increased the elevator became very sensitive so that the a/c could be pulled into a sudden stall with a very slight pull of the stick where as at the same time the ailerons became heavy and in high speed very very heavy. The bob weights helped in this with the elevator but only after some G was applied. AFAIK the hinge improvement cured the nasty tendency of the a/c tightening the turn by itself once the CoG started shifting in a turn.

So it had a bad control harmony as the speed increased (except in slow speeds) and I'd imagine the gunnery to be difficult while maneuvering.

Bf109
The 109 was more balanced in controls but in high speeds the elevators became almost too heavy but this in turn made the a/c a stable gun platform. The rudder lacked an inflight trim making the flight in some speeds tiresome as the rudder needed a constant pressure to keep the a/c straight.

It had quirks in takeoff and landing which needed complete attention from its pilot and careful training.

FW190
The 190 was the best in contols of them all added that it needed very little trimming if at all through its flight envelope. AFAIK the 109 pilots converting to 190 thought the controls to be too light but that is understandable considering what they were familiar with. I have never heard that the 190 was "unstable" in rolling axis even if it was its strength. That would mean that its rolling plane was overly light in controls opposed to elevator plane and AFAIK this was not the case in 190 as it was always praised of having very harmonous controls.

Fire away.

-C+

Crumpp · « **Reply #24 on:** September 07, 2004, 05:16:08 AM »

Quote

The Spitfire was "unstable" because of very light elevator and heavy ailerons in certain speed.

Stability has little to do with control harmonization. Where the lack of control harmony hurt the Spitfire is in the pilots ability to apply the controls.

Just check out RAE 1231. The Spitfire could not come anywhere near it's calculated rate of roll due to the pilots ability to apply the necessary stick forces.

Crumpp

Charge · « **Reply #25 on:** September 07, 2004, 06:46:21 AM »

"Stability has little to do with control harmonization."

Ty Crumpp, you are right. I wasn't clear on that.

I was only talking about control harmony which is what artik was referring to IMO.

-C+

Angus · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2004, 09:32:46 AM »

"Just check out RAE 1231. The Spitfire could not come anywhere near it's calculated rate of roll due to the pilots ability to apply the necessary stick forces. "

Got a link for it?

Anyway, earlier Spits roll rate were often helped with a strong pilot. Sailor Malan was for instance famous for taking his Spits into rolls that nobody could follow.
What Mk is RAE 1231?

Crumpp · « **Reply #27 on:** September 07, 2004, 03:03:32 PM »

I will email you the full report Angus.

1. The curve in the NACA roll rate report is the average of only 4 measured rolls. 2 are below the curve, 1 is on the curve, and 1 is WAY above the curve.

2. The RAF test pilot states the FW-190 test had the stiffest alerions of the three 190's he had flown.

3. The clipped wing spits rolled just a fraction of a second worse than the FW-190. The normal winged spits where hopelessly outrolled especially at high speed due to stick forces.

And of course they factor in the pilots ability to actually conduct the rolls given the control harmony/forces.

Crumpp

mw · « **Reply #28 on:** September 07, 2004, 03:06:18 PM »

Thanks Angus, I'll see if I can run that down

VO101_Isegrim · « **Reply #29 on:** September 07, 2004, 03:17:04 PM »

Crumpp, email me that too, if you`d please.
I have some others on that, too.