Author Topic: The 1945 arena  (Read 1372 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2004, 09:21:27 PM »
Arlo, it ain't about my personal likes. I'm not terribly broken up over the P-38 being disabled. I'm not happy about it, but it isn't the end of the world. I LIKE the P-47, AND the F4U. Don't worry about me, I'm not in any predicament.

But I don't like ANYONE being restricted from something they like with regards to normally available planes and vehicles. And I don't like anyone being forced to choose between flying what they want or flying where they want. The ENY system IS duress, any way you turn it. It does FORCE people, one way or another.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline J_A_B

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2004, 09:24:33 PM »
Arlo--

I usually respect you, but in this case you seem to be under the misguided notion that everyone should be perfectly happy in any paticular ride in AH, and that if someone ISN'T happy in a different ride then he must be selfish or stupid or "bull-headed" or something.

That simply isn't true, at least not for me.  We don't all play AH for the same reasons.  I dont pick my choice ride for any reasons except my own and if I'm not in it....then chances are I'm not having much fun.  Yes I can make do with flying a 109F and get just as many kills if not more than I can in my choice ride....but what's the point if, for me, instead of a fun time it's just an empty pointless un-fun experience?

Fun is subjective and what you may find fun, others may not.  

I've watched the numbers during the last month and I've noticed more than anything that playing the game as I like to has turned into a job.  Side switching, while an option, is annoying.  It's also unreliable since there's been a number of times that numbers changed so fast that the side switch limiter kicks in.  Believe me, this is a severe issue the way I play (one or two flights, then one or two more a couple hours later).  Plus even if I get the side whith my choice ride available, the thought of flying against people who are limited to inferior equipment just turns me off even more.   Hence I just haven't flown....log on, check #'s...then log off.

Maybe I could get a "free pass" to always have my particular favorite ride available at the expense of having all other aircraft disabled.  That'd be fine with me :)


I don't begrudge HTC for making the choices they have (it's their product and all), but I'm well aware that my style of play might be permanently at odds with their new vision....if it indeed turns out that way, then I leave.   nothing I can do about it, so I took a wait-and-see attitude rather than rushing to judgement.   HTC is going to do what is best for them so...if my play style has become a casualty of improvement, so be it--I'll move on.  Wouldn't be the first time (I recall leaving WB's when they modified my play style out of existance over there).  

Maybe I'll get back into FPS or something.  I hear people still play CS.



J_A_B
« Last Edit: September 07, 2004, 09:27:36 PM by J_A_B »

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2004, 09:30:23 PM »
What I keep noticing is that people refuse to look for the root causes, and continue to ignore the real problem. So long as someone is being FORCED to make some sort of choice they do not like, in order to "even the odds", some are happy with being HANDED a "solution" without having to put forth any effort. THAT is having your cake and eating it too. Alas, the real problem will remain, and the "fix" will get more severe, and those same people will wonder what happened.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Arlo

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2004, 09:41:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
Arlo--

I usually respect you, but ...


You can still fly any plane you want to. Your refusal to switch to do it does make you bull-headed stubborn, amigo. And the rationalization that "numbers change therefore if I switch I still may be denied my late war chariot anyway" simply means the  ENY restriction actually has gotten some players to realize that switching from time to time isn't the end of the world. They're willing to "go to the extreme effort" that you're not willing to. So see? Works out. Don't like the weather? Wait 10 minutes and it'll change. Ain't got ten minutes? You never had time for this hobby to begin with.

Hope you find the greener grass you seek. If not, come on back and have fun in the dirt. Either the squeeky wheel will get the system changed back or players will learn to adapt to the "disaster" and have fun again like they did when their favorite ride got perked.  :)

Offline Guppy35

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2004, 09:52:57 PM »
What do you see as the solution Savage?

For me, I'd unperk em all.  And I'd eliminate 'winning the reset", via the uncapturable, undamageable bases in each country.

I'd create targets for the bomber guys to go after, whether it be attack stuff or strategic, besides the base bombing

In the end it sounds like the old AW1 stuff, but somehow that let everyone do their thing.  

It would be nice to see the community start to build itself better and develop some sort of identity, whether it be the bomber guys or the fighter guys.

I know it's just me getting nostalgic for my 'golden time' in a flight sim as Blue Baron described it way back when, but I liked it when I knew the guys I was fighting with and against and there was much more of a maturity to the arena. I know the oldtimers that preceeded us would dispute that :) I don't ever remember caring if we "won the war".  It was the battle in the air that mattered.

If it hadn't been that way, the Nomads would have never formed as we were from every country and had gotten to know each other battling it out over the water in AW1.  

I suppose, thinking about it as I write, that the constant shuffling of the maps probably doesn't help as well as there are no 'familiar' battlegrounds where players or squads stake out their turf so to speak.

Once again, I know it's nostalgia for me to a time when a flight sim felt right.  I don't envy Hitech having to somehow find a ground that pleases most.

Dan/Slack
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Offline Arlo

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2004, 09:56:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
... some are happy with being HANDED a "solution" without having to put forth any effort.


Conversely, some people are happy to be a continuing part of a problem until it starts taking effort. Then they'll still be a part of the problem but they'll not be happy about it.

Zazen talked about the community being able to take care of the problem in it's own way on it's own schedule. I suggested giving it a try for two weeks (or even a month) and he waffled.

And honestly, I looked long and hard for a solution in your posts, my friend but all I saw was a discussion about how human nature rejects being forced or coerced to do anything and how misjudged the rooks are and how the community should be able to handle number disparity on it's own.

I don't think that's really a solution. But I'll make the same concession to you (not that it's in my power to make the change). I'll side with any and everyone here to request that the ENY restriction be lifted for a month and if the community can figure out a suitable alternative to what HT implemented ... yippee.

(Bear in mind that I still don't care whether ENY restriction or the horde mentality exists. I'm just gonna challenge the wall of whine to put up or shut up.) ;)

No offense. We are friends, as far as I'm concerned. :)

Offline J_A_B

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2004, 09:59:50 PM »
Ok so I see how it is

Issue doesn't affect you personally so you discount those who it does affect.

Please highlight the part where I said I refuse to switch.  I said It's annoying; never said I wouldn't do it.  Of course I also pointed out that due to my unique play style and limited time that switching frequently wouldn't help (confirmed by my observations).  Well...you make clear that you expect people to to just "suck up" what we dislike and move on.

To which I reply:

I'm not here to "put up with it", I do enough of that at work.  I'm here to have fun.  If this stops being fun then I leave, no big deal.


Glad you continue to like it.  Hope that doesn't change.

J_A_B

Offline Arlo

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2004, 10:02:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B

Glad you continue to like it.  Hope that doesn't change.

J_A_B


I hope so too, because if it does it's probably because I'm dead, incarcerated or living in a gutter in some big city suffering from amnesia. :D

Offline save

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2004, 06:27:21 AM »
my idea of fun will be a rps.

not just 1945-> planes that are competitive

1rst day 1939-40 including BOB. spit1 ju88 109e etc

2nd day  40-41     109f early 190a2 spit5
etc

3rd  day   41-42    p38f f4f zero m2 etc etc

4rd day     42-43   p38j b17 109g2 etc

5th dat      43-44   109g6 190a8 b24 f6f
f4u a36 p47c etc

6th day     jun44-dec44 190dora
mustang d model 109g10 ki84 etc etc

7th day   262 arado 234 me163 meteor
               
Many wants their favourite ride 4-ever
but they have to learn to be good in more than one uberplane.
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
"And the Yak 3 ,aka the "flying Yamato"..."
-Caldera

Offline jodgi

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2004, 06:28:46 AM »
Oh..Oh, Oh!

I just had a bright moment!

Fear not whiners, you can just change to the side which has lower numbers. That way you can fly what you want and you can escape the terrible punishment the ENY system is bringing upon you.

Hah!

I bet you never thought of that!

...

No need to thank me, I'm always happy to help.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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And still
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2004, 07:23:05 AM »
two countries cling desperately to the idea that the ONLY reason the third has more active players is because there is safety in numbers. And completely ignore the possibility that the reason they have fewer active players at any time is likely due to something within themselves. All the while lashing out blindly at anything or anyone that suggests that rather than look, beg, or whine for a handout, they do something for themselves. The more things change, the more they stay the same.:rolleyes:
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline xHaMmeRx

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2004, 07:40:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
You want to limit certain planes.  Go deep to hit the aircraft factories.  



Air Warrior had this.  Kill the aircraft factory, no more spitfires were available.  You could do something similar with the ENY.  Kill one factory, planes with ENY lower then X are no longer available.  Kill a second plane factory, planes with ENY lower than Y are no longer available.  Or it could be zone specific; kill the zone's aircraft factory and planes below a certain ENY would no longer be available in that zone.  I think it would be more popular than the current ENY system, it would give strategic bombing real importance (assuming the factory was deep and hard enough to destroy that a few suicide JABOs couldn't do it), and it would be a big incentive for teams to actively defend at least one of their factories.

My main issue with the whole "change sides to even numbers" philosophy is that many of us have flown with many of the others on our "teams" for years and have developed a large network of people we know and trust to fly with. I don't want to see them or me deciding to go to another side to balance a temporary inequity in the arena only to be locked in when the imbalance shifts to another side, potentially even the one they or we went to.  While I understand the desire to prevent the hordes, I also struggle with the frustration of facing the opposition on some other part of the map where I am out-numbered and forced to fly something other than what I want to fly given the local situation. So far it hasn't been a major problem, but I have muttered under my breath a few times.

Hammer
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2004, 07:40:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Conversely, some people are happy to be a continuing part of a problem until it starts taking effort. Then they'll still be a part of the problem but they'll not be happy about it.

Zazen talked about the community being able to take care of the problem in it's own way on it's own schedule. I suggested giving it a try for two weeks (or even a month) and he waffled.

And honestly, I looked long and hard for a solution in your posts, my friend but all I saw was a discussion about how human nature rejects being forced or coerced to do anything and how misjudged the rooks are and how the community should be able to handle number disparity on it's own.

I don't think that's really a solution. But I'll make the same concession to you (not that it's in my power to make the change). I'll side with any and everyone here to request that the ENY restriction be lifted for a month and if the community can figure out a suitable alternative to what HT implemented ... yippee.

(Bear in mind that I still don't care whether ENY restriction or the horde mentality exists. I'm just gonna challenge the wall of whine to put up or shut up.) ;)

No offense. We are friends, as far as I'm concerned. :)


Again, you ASSUME that the Rooks are the root of the problem because they "refuse to switch sides and even things up". You ignore the reasons why they won't, and yet you blame them still. You see one side as supposedly having a "horde" all the time, when that is not at all the case. You also discount the known fact that over time, the disparity has always existed, in favor of no one side more than another, and has always been transient, never permanent.

Actually, you have no real arguement nor any real position, you just simply argue to argue. It is what you like to do. You for some reason see yourself as some sort of "anti whine avenger", and you like to play at it, regardless of the situation. That, of course, makes you Arlo. As it has been, and as it will be. In this case, you've decided to create a new (only the latest) cause, that being that anyone who is against the ENY system, for whatever reason, is nothing other than a whiner. It amuses you, and occupies your time. Again, that just makes you Arlo, as it has been, and as it will be. Oh well. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Arlo

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2004, 07:45:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Again, you ASSUME that the Rooks are the root of the problem because they "refuse to switch sides and even things up". You ignore the reasons why they won't, and yet you blame them still.  


Actually you are assuming. And in doing so, you reveal your own impressions. I never said that. Read the post again, my friend. :aok

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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The 1945 arena
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2004, 08:06:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
What do you see as the solution Savage?

For me, I'd unperk em all.  And I'd eliminate 'winning the reset", via the uncapturable, undamageable bases in each country.

I'd create targets for the bomber guys to go after, whether it be attack stuff or strategic, besides the base bombing

In the end it sounds like the old AW1 stuff, but somehow that let everyone do their thing.  

It would be nice to see the community start to build itself better and develop some sort of identity, whether it be the bomber guys or the fighter guys.

I know it's just me getting nostalgic for my 'golden time' in a flight sim as Blue Baron described it way back when, but I liked it when I knew the guys I was fighting with and against and there was much more of a maturity to the arena. I know the oldtimers that preceeded us would dispute that :) I don't ever remember caring if we "won the war".  It was the battle in the air that mattered.

If it hadn't been that way, the Nomads would have never formed as we were from every country and had gotten to know each other battling it out over the water in AW1.  

I suppose, thinking about it as I write, that the constant shuffling of the maps probably doesn't help as well as there are no 'familiar' battlegrounds where players or squads stake out their turf so to speak.

Once again, I know it's nostalgia for me to a time when a flight sim felt right.  I don't envy Hitech having to somehow find a ground that pleases most.

Dan/Slack


Just as I keep saying, the solution is to find out WHY there is this supposed disparity. I think the disparity is a lot less than it is made out to be, and it is very transient. I also think I know what is going on and why. Of course, I'm pretty certain it won't matter.

From what I've seen, and I try to log in and look at different times on different days, this so called numbers thing is very transient, on certain nights, at any given time, any one side will have some measure of advantage, or disadvantage. No one side seems to hold any massive advantage all the time.

I'm not able to look as closely as DokGonzo, but he says he's found that there are Rook nights, there are Bishop nights, and there are Knight nights (pardon the goofy sound of that).  Meaning all three countries have their nights in the barrel, and all three have their time on top. As it will be no matter what.

Back to what I said earlier, and why I don't think the "reset war" has much to do with it. The reset gains people very little. Only 75 perks IF you are there when the reset happens ( can take hours, people log on and off). Even the quest for the reset gains you little if you have numbers, as perks are refactored so you get much less if you have a numerical advantage, and the kills and captures (and the smaller perk rewards) are distributed among a much larger group.

As such, so long as there are ANY captureable and/or destroyable features, there will be those who seek to do so. So there will ALWAYS at times be masses who seek to do so. Because there will always be groups on any one side who gather together to do so. There will be ebb and flow in the numbers. Without those features, a large portion will be unhappy with gameplay, and will either play less, or find something else that fulfills their need and do that instead, and not play here at all. I don't think we REALLY want that.

Dan, I know you miss the old days. It was a different time and place, gone forever. You think I DON'T miss it? We can NEVER bring it back, we can't go back, and we can't make AH into the old days. But we CAN make it much better, but the ENY limiter WILL NOT do it.

I actually have several things I'm looking at and am developing a theory as to why the extremes of the current situation exist. And why one certain side seems to be causing the other two such a terrible problem, supposedly. When I'm done, I'll toss it out there, and I'm very certain it will be dismissed and ignored.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe