ENY resource thoughts

[dragoon]

I started to write this as a reply to: http://hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129411


i havent been able to spend much lately. everytime i reach enough for a jet i take it. i carry about 200-300 fighter perks at a time. if someone asked me my favorite plane, id say the 262.  i checked my perks and noticed i had enough for a jet around 270 so i hit the runway and recieved a ENY box. bummer

heres a thought. ENY might represent resources. you cant make the planes if resources are low. so why not make the ENY porkable, and resupplyable. add aircraft factories in zones on the map. each catagory of factory represents a broad ENY range. if its damaged beyond 50% it shuts down and that range of ENY, its blocked. have VHs on them but no maproom. if that zone base is taken, that ENY range becomes locked at ALWAYS ON for the side that lost the base. so as the losing side lose bases, their planeset becomes more unporkable. they can then launch buff missions in to the winning side porking aircraft factories and shutting down their planeset. also have a close airfield or vh that spawns into them. i think the aircraft factories should not be the same plane every reset. if its a 262 one reset its a c 202 the next. once a new factory is bombed once it become identified for that reset. you can check strat on it only after its identified.  might also be a good idea to have the ability to roll expensive (150 perk to 200) me163s from these factories.

also add factories that supply the aircraft factories. like a steal factory and manufacturing factories. take these down to 80% to slow down the regeneration rate of the aircraft factories. take it down to 50% and halt resupply to the aircraft factory. these are also supplyable.

in war there are resources that you must go after to hault the production of munitions and war machines. i believe this would fill in the only gap i see at this moment. it would also add more strategic situations of defend and attack in a broader plan. realism. i feel this should be the natural evolution to the game anyway. it will also make bombing a more competitive stat. more perks for these sorites would equal more perks to spend on (possibly) future bombers and ARs.

it will also solve the problem of numbers. by having the ability to pork these factories, you gain some control over what thay can attack you with. if the losing side refuses to go on bombing sorties at the risk of dieing to change their situation then they deserve getting overrun. whole mission could be planned around killing factories for containment purposes. once the NMY factories are burning you will have the people that fly those ENY ranges of their planes scrambling to resupply. that takes pressure of the front for a while. if there was a situation like R 200 K 150 and B 110 and the bish were losing, they could post 3 missions of bombers and escorts about 50 or 60 players to pork known locations of strategic targets ie: ENY range 1-7 and 7-14, 14- 21 and so on. if the range of the c47 gets below 50% it cant deliver troops.. only supplies. this would also help to stop advancement for a while.

this would give the players total control over the arena and the next evolution of realism to the game. provide more bombing targets and add the ability to be more strategic minded. even with a small number you can control the NMY when it counts.

i think i think i think to much

[simshell]

i like the idea



but iv allways been for almost anyway to bring factorys into the game more


right now people only use them to padd there score

[Naso]

I like the idea too.

More strategic bombing in the game.

[Kev367th]

Well can see one glaring problem -
Country with overwhelming odds creams the lowest numbers countries factories.
Result - they are in even bigger doodoo.

This would all roll into the fuel situation as it stands at present. Would like to see strats play a more important role, just unsure how to implement it without giving a counrty an overwhelming advantage if they have sufficient numbers.

[simshell]

have it so if the numbers get to lopsided then the country with small numbers has its strats stay fully working and cant be porked until numbers improve

[TexMurphy]

I love this idea. One thing that Ive always felt AH lacks is resource controll.

Resources are so important to warfare.

While this does not solve the issue at hand with the ENY limmit (ballancing out sides when online numbers arnt ballanced) it does add a very good new use to the ENY ratings. It also adds ALOT of more depth to the game play and makes bombing runs soo much more important.

A side with really good bomber pilots would really benefit from it. Plus that since these factories should be located deep into enemy territory these bombing runs would be really high altitude. This would add high altitude combat to the game as well. Currently the fight altitude is very low compared to WW2.

Yes definatly a good idea but should be viewed as a separte idea from the ENY limmit.

Tex

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by dragoon
I started to write this as a reply to: http://hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129411


i havent been able to spend much lately. everytime i reach enough for a jet i take it. i carry about 200-300 fighter perks at a time. if someone asked me my favorite plane, id say the 262.  i checked my perks and noticed i had enough for a jet around 270 so i hit the runway and recieved a ENY box. bummer

woh!  Thanks dragoon for giving a thought to my post.  While I knew that people were reading it, I didn't think it was ringing bells... this is good to know.

What I wanted to show was that somehow with this "Plane Set Limiter", the concept of perk points in the game has somewhat become distorted... Before the message was, "Yeah, you can fly a Me262 or a Tempest or a Ta152... but you have to work for it."  This is fundamentally different from the message we have today, "No, you can't fly them.  If you want to fly 'em, change countries."  Changing countries is not really what you work for... even as a game.  With this "Plane Set Limiter", even the concept of perk points seems to have lost its meaning.

So, what can we do? I really like the idea of a plane factory, and the planes affected by it is depended on the ENY value as we have today.  But what are we trying to achieve in the end?  Whether the objective is to make people change sides or not, the effect that we all want to have is reduced offensive capabilities of the side with more numbers.  I am sure that everyone will agree with this thought.

So, HTC limits the plane set according to the number of players on each side and the ENY value assigned to the planes.  Actually, this is the only thing that has been tried to limit the offensive capabilities.  Some people like it, some people don't... there are ways to argue on both sides... probably an endless story...

I myself don't like this "Plane Set Limiter" because it is not compatible with the concept of perk points, at least the perk multiplier.

We can try something else... like what is suggested here... the key word here is "Work for it"... "not" that it is "automatically given" when you change sides, this is another key word... ("reduced offensive capabilities" for the side with more numbers of course!)

Strat... this is interesting... like Kev mentions, there will be a glaring problem that the side with more numbers will still overrun the other side anyway.  So... as simshell mentions, only the side with more numbers is affected... Yeah a great idea!  But, nahhh... the side with more numbers will not have the incentive to bomb, plainly because it has no effect... key word here, "Work for it" and "not automatically given"... So... what can we do... make the side with more numbers "work" more "for it"... well, here's a thought... play with the regeneration time of the strat from ammo, fuel, barracks to the hangers and factories.  While at it, play with the resupply criteria as well.  Make the side with more numbers work more to resupply and/or longer for strat to regenerate, and a lot shorter for the side with lower numbers.  It might be interesting to see VHs down only for one minute!

As for the "Plane Set Limiter", I would rather see a perk point imposed on the planes, together with the perk multiplier in effect, rather than disabling them completely.  Key word here is again "work for it".  We have seen this with the F4U-1C before... just with a few perk cost imposed, people were relunctant to fly them.  I mean, we have to have something for people to spend their perk points!  We have to have some incentive for people to spend, otherwise people like me will never spend it.  We gotta drain the savings somehow... in the game.

Well... that's my thoughts... now back to your regular programming...

[hitech]

I dislike the idea .

Implementing system like you propose would rapidly create a steam roller effect. Once you damage something, you gain a big advantage to continue the attack. Why this is simmalar  how it is in real life. It creates bad game play.

If you notice all strat in the MA is designed to limit a countries offense, not it's deffensive ablity. This is done very intentialy, what you propose would drasticly limit a countries defensive ablities.


HiTech

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by hitech
Once you damage something, you gain a big advantage to continue the attack.

Hitech, not really, if you have a shorter regeneration time for sides with lower numbers... don't you think?  What I suggested is that the offensive capabilities of sides with lower numbers is not affected that much as compared to sides with higher numbers.

[dragoon]

Originally posted by hitech
I dislike the idea .

Implementing system like you propose would rapidly create a steam roller effect. Once you damage something, you gain a big advantage to continue the attack. Why this is simmalar  how it is in real life. It creates bad game play.

If you notice all strat in the MA is designed to limit a countries offense, not it's deffensive ablity. This is done very intentialy, what you propose would drasticly limit a countries defensive ablities.


HiTech

in original thread post in regards to creaming the losing side.

"if that zone base is taken, that ENY range becomes locked at ALWAYS ON for the side that lost the base. so as the losing side lose bases, their planeset becomes more unporkable. they can then launch buff missions in to the winning side porking aircraft factories and shutting down their planeset."

the above mentioned is the sole thing that keeps the winning side from rolling the map. it gives the losing side a change to change their situation and keep the numbers at bay. as the losing side loses important bases (zone bases) the range of planes belonging to the zone just captured becomes locked at always on for the losing side.

HITECH,

if a factory is damaged it can be resupplied. and at the same time "known" aircraft factories can be targeted by the losing side hindering their "steamroller effect." it all boils down to which side is willing to dedicate the time and thought needed to control the map. lets say the losing side has 999000 or any number of great bomber pilots. these guys will usually make it through to the targets. in a lancaster you could take a factory down to rubble in 1 pass of you know what your doing. take out their bombing and jabo and all they can do is resupply. taking pressure of the fronts and giving the losing side time to recoup.

also, on the subject of realism. i can sitdown and watch the wings channel and see huge waves of bombers going into NMY territory to hit nothing but factories for the sole purpose of shutting down the NMY. we DO NOT have this in AH. and bombing a city or an ammo factory does nothing to help the losing side. sure if you want to run some lancs to an NMY field and shut down their hangers, ya might get a small taste of this, but you should be the first to admit that it is very limited.
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i submit to you all that "war is not fair." it took/takes numbers to win a conflict. this is the very thing that HITECH strikes at with the ENY system. even the playing field and deny the normal state of war. my idea evens the playing field for ALL involved by giving the masses the chance to plot strategic operations for holding/gaining ground. i watch on TV the awesome campaigns of the american bombers hitting NMY targets and crippling them. if the axis would have bothered to run missions on this scale the war just might have had a different outcome. the problem is not in the NUMBERS, its in the game itself as it is not a perfect model of war yet. its lacking in that it does not have a means to use the bombers in the game as they were used in real life.

we won the map the other night with 190 a8s and a5s and other lessor aircraft. if the losing side had a means to stop the horde from rolling the map it would not have happened. my system give players the power to slow if not stop the NMY.

HITECH i realise that the idea of this is daunting to you all to say the least. any idea that make the game fair for all and adds an unacheved level of realism will not be an easy task to code. i should know cause at one time i had to help overhaul code for a game i used to run/code on. maybe this will be AH3? i dunno but you have to admit that this is a good idea and deserves serious discussion. sure all the little kinks are not worked out but as my idea hits at past real life situations....it should be the natural evolution of the game to incorperate this kinda of system and gameplay. i would definatly fly a bomber more if this were the system we played on. now the only time i fly bombers is to milkrun. there are more dedicated bomber pilots that take care of hitting hangers and such so there is no need for me to fly bomber alot. i cant speak for everyone but i believe that bombers in this game as it is are not reaching full potential. and there again there is the issue of making the game fair for all and not just the players who dont like to see the NMY with overwhelming odds.

ask yourself this question: if you were an axis commander, who would you complain to about the allies having overwhelming numbers and better machines? and thats even saying that the allies had better machines. i think the germans had great machines personally. and if the germans would not have blundered and had better generals they would have held the world. the allies knew that if they shut down production of aircraft and tanks they would eventually win the war. so if the winning side is orginized enough to shutdown production in NMY lands then they deserve to win. it would then be the losing sides fault for not taking care of their resources and planning better. many examples of "war not being fair" can be listed here.

with a system like the one i purpose to all of you, there would be no excuse for whining about numbers or crying over ENY.  it would be a direct result of which side can manage resources better and plan accordingly or offense and defense. a small band can hold ground if properly motivated (fear of losing) and if they can plan out events and adjust to bad circumstances.

IMO resource management is the way to go for better gameplay and more realism.

[DoKGonZo]

You're dealing with a mentality which is using Lancs and B17's as dive bombers - I am doubtful you'd get enough critical mass of bomber guys to fly these kinds of strategic missions in the manner they are intended.

Not saying that the targets wouldn't get hit. But the more likelihood of creating across-the-board porkage to the enema, the more likely you'll see the most lame-arsed tactics used to achieve this result.


I did like someone's idea from another thread, though, about zone HQ's needing to be down to allow captures within the zone. That makes steamrolling much harder to do as forces need to be somewhat split and the attack can be cut off in either place.

The nice thing is that it forces strategic play to achieve tactical objectives WITHOUT porking anything.


And, contrary to many opinions, I'd still like to see barracks made tougher to kill. Numbers imbalances are worse when its the same base being vultched hour after hour because troops are porked for the nearest dozen sectors. You get a dozen planes circling a half dozen GV's ... yawn.

[dragoon]

HITECH,

also i would like to point out that this idea is a rough draft to say the least. bad gameplay is created when the losing side becomes demoralized due to overwhelming numbers. they give up or find a place to get kills instead of helping out.

if the losing side runs a mission with loads of buffs to NMY territory, yes it would hinder defense for a while. but at the same time it takes players to defend against such an attack. this in turn takes pressure off the front. it may leave the losing side defensless for a while but in turn the losing side games pressious time to plan their next strategies. and in this situation the side that can plan better will be the side who either wins, holds ground until the next shift of players log in or begins to gain ground due to the crippling of the NMY. the door swings both ways here. sure the winning side can do the same, but as they start to take zone bases the losing side automatically recieves a fuller planeset. a losing side can beat back the NMY with just a few airfields...i have seen it happen tooo many times when i was a KNIGHT. and a few hours later people are logging and relogging and numbers change, so does the situation of the losing side. i have seen it go from 3 bases to 10 within an hour and so on. i might add that if the losing side is down to a few bases their planeset is wide open and cannot be porked. this give an advantage to the losing side....a chance to dig theirselves out. you might even consider making jets free of perks when bases are very low.

IMO the only way to create a steam roller effect with a system like is the losing side neglects to hit targets and stop the winning side from advancing. a steamroller (SR) effect can be more pronounced in the begining meaning, the side with numbers will pork all your aircraft factories up front making resistance hard. but as they start taking your bases, your planeset becomes more avalable to you giving you a change to overcome. the SR effect would only be an initial thing to deal with but as the night wear on it would go away and slow down if the losing side does their jobs. but if the losing side lays down the the winning side, sure it will be a SR, at the same time blame can only be put to the losing side for not playing the game to its fullest.

my ability to write C and C++ is limited. but i can read the code with no problem. if i had the ability to create a game with the idea i have, i could demonstrate it for you. i know you are proud of your system but it is lacking and needs more. if you make a game about war and you try to have balanced numbers then it makes for a boring time. war isnt fair and numbers win the day. in other words a game of war isnt suposed to be fair cause war isnt fair at all. making a war game fair defeats the purpose of the game itself.

how many times have the numbers looked like this 150 138 147 and the map was reset during this time? i cant recall it ever happening. but it prolly has but not very often. the point of the game is to win the war. with numbers balanced the map stalls and it becomes old fast. this is the flaw in your ENY system. forcing those who would stay with their friends to move in order to accomidate those who are pissy about numbers is not fair at all to the side with numbers. this is what the ENY does. it all in all forces the numbers to even out while punishing those who refuse to move. all the while it creates a more balanced game that will become stalwert and bland. making winning the war a rare thing to achieve. and it defeats the purpose of the game!

IMO the game is not seeing its full potential at all. the current ENY restrictions only make the game worse for those who would be punished for being loyal to their country and friends. the installment of the ENY system was in haste and the consequecnes were not totally thought out. you could have came up with a better solution given more time and more input. but in order to make the game better you have to admit that the ENY restriction was a bad idea. find a better solution though talk and threads that everyone can deal with.

these are the reasons i keep paying my 15 a month.
-my squad
-my friends and my country
-my favorite planes (which i cannot fly anymore)

you have taken away from us the planes we WANT to fly. take away anything else and i cannot justify 15 per month. especially if my squad is torn apart by having to move. i know we are not being forced to do so, but with the ENY system in place it is a pressure that i do not like. balancing the game out would make for a nasty time and the fun factor goes way down. personally i could care less about numbers. but not admitting or failing to see that a balanced game will cause even bigger problems is a short coming indeed.

i know i am a nobody. but i have 2 hands and 10 fingers and a brain. none the less i still challenge you to find a better solution or make the game better. i have put forth many decient ideas on finding a solution but they are all ignored. so have many other peeved players. its like WE are being ignored and the other side is loving it. if you have a game that is pizzing players off even a fraction, then the game is seriously flawed and needs revamped. since its still in BETA now would be a good time to try something else or create add-ons that would enhance gameplay. like the idea i just put forth to you all. it is sound and more realistic to real life situations. sure there are things to be considered about it.

at the very least HITECH you could open a dialog and find out what we want in the game. it may be your vision but seeing as we have to continually pay for access makes it our game too. it would be different if we payed our 60$ for the game up front and was able to access the arenas for free. but since we all have to pay monthly especially the minority here, we deserve a bit more out of you all. and when negative responces come in and you act on a whim you ruin it for everyone else. now you have another camp of unhappy players where there was none before.

a good solution is one that makes everyone happy. not just a small part of the game. a bad solution is one that makes the unhappy happy but at the same time creates another unhappy group of players. its like a pandoras box. i say if a solution cannot be found that is suitable for all then the game is flawed and needs work. failing to see this only makes the problem worse.

[dragoon]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
You're dealing with a mentality which is using Lancs and B17's as dive bombers - I am doubtful you'd get enough critical mass of bomber guys to fly these kinds of strategic missions in the manner they are intended.

Not saying that the targets wouldn't get hit. But the more likelihood of creating across-the-board porkage to the enema, the more likely you'll see the most lame-arsed tactics used to achieve this result.


I did like someone's idea from another thread, though, about zone HQ's needing to be down to allow captures within the zone. That makes steamrolling much harder to do as forces need to be somewhat split and the attack can be cut off in either place.

The nice thing is that it forces strategic play to achieve tactical objectives WITHOUT porking anything.


And, contrary to many opinions, I'd still like to see barracks made tougher to kill. Numbers imbalances are worse when its the same base being vultched hour after hour because troops are porked for the nearest dozen sectors. You get a dozen planes circling a half dozen GV's ... yawn.

i say that if this system was in place, players might actually make it an objective to become better bombers with divebombing as a last ditch effort. it would also make bombing a more competitive catagory. as it stands, the MA has nothing really for bombers to hit making even flying a bomber boring. sure you can hit a factory when an airfield is close enough to the factory but thats about it side from hitting hangers and towns.  its not very often you see a horde of bombers coming your way. maybe once or twice per week. in WW2 bombers were the mainstay and if it wasnt for them the war might have taken a different direction. without the ability to hit major targets in the MA it kinda makes bombers next to useless. why not have more targets for the bombers to hit that are important for the war machineof the NMY? on the subject of barracks, i feel that grunt training should be the "barracks" instead of field barracks. knock out grunt training and that zone suffers the loss of troops.

hitting the current strats does little to hurt your NMY. all they do is slow down regen rates which can be overcome by resupplying the field that the strat is on. if you can knock out a military base that trains paratroopers then you would have done the same thing but on a grander scale. its little changes and additions like this that would make the game better. if you could knock out a whole zone of trps it would severly hinder your NMY. you ould still have trps at these fields with the trps knocked out for the zone but they should be limited in number. maybe 20 trpsper field that is in a zone which has been knocked out. that field has on site barracks which can still be KOd but as soon as they up a few goons or m3s they deplete that bases trps. if the barracks on that field are destroyed then they are gone untill the base and the grunt training/militart training facilities are rebuilt.

just a thought