No Airelons IRL?

[Simaril]

Without the details, lets just say  that I lost both aireolons without other damage. Miraculously, I'm left alone enough to egress from the hot zone -- and I find that my Dora is controllable, even in roll axis. I'm able to keep roll stability without problem, and can even get adequate directional control by using elevators and rudder in combination. I manage to get all the way back to base, and land my kills.

Could this happen in real life? I'm not a pilot (though I play one on the CRT....hehe), but it seems to me that using these controls for an extended period would be unrealistically hard. Wouldnt the first time roll stability was lost, take you past some critical point so that uncontrolled roll would take over and you'd have to bail?

[ra]

Could this happen in real life?

I doubt it.  It's the same way in Il-2.  

I think it would be very hard to control a plane with no ailerons, especially a fighter which is designed with some natural instability.  Also, if the aileron cables were shot out, the ailerons would probably flap around and make things even worse than just not having aileron control.

I once read an account of a Fw-190F8 pilot who barely managed to RTB after having one bullet hit his aileron on a ground attack mission.

ra

[Krusty]

There are countless tales of fighters being badly shot up and making it back. Some B17s made it back without hardly ANY vertical stab left. One tale of a british bomber/flying boat (forgot which) used throttle management in lieu of a missing rudder.

I find it perfectly easy to believe that rudder controlls roll, especially since, in REAL LIFE a 737 (I believe) rolled uncontrollably on takeoff and crashed, killing all aboard. The problem? Rudder servos, which somehow reversed (technical problem which was henceforth fixed on all other planes) which caused full rudder deflection, resulting in full roll. Pilots tried to counter, not knowing rudder was reversing inputs, and just rolled more, until it nosed over and plowed into the earth.


So yes, rudders DO affect roll.

[MRPLUTO]

I've lost both ailerons, too, and was able to carefully fly home and land.

 As for real life...the only example I know of this happening is with radio control aircraft, which often just have elevators and a rudder for control.  They seem to fly okay.  And I think it would be even easier to fly such an aircraft while IN it, so you could fly "by the seat of your pants" and make adjustments even sooner than someone watching from the ground could.

That's my 2 cents.


MRPLUTO

[Starbird]

The difference with rudder only r/c craft, is that they're designed with rudder only control in mind. They have a huge amount of dihedral and will pretty much level themselves when you center the rudder.

It is possible to control roll with rudder without using ailerons on a plane designed with them. Its not easy, especially if you get into a steep turn; the plane will want to keep rolling into it.

Landing is difficult, at low speeds you'll yaw more than roll, so you kind of bounce all over the place when trying to line up.

I'm not sure how this relates to high performance full scale aircraft.

[Purzel]

Theretically it works, but to me it seems too easy in AH.

By yawing left you point the fuselage to the left side while travelling ahaed (more or less).

This will put the a part of the left wing in the "wind shadow" of the fuselage. So the left wing will produce less lift than the right one. This means it will slowly drop, which is essentially a roll to the left.

But when landing especially there are more forces to consider. Like the prop striking the air difrerently on both sides, creating a yawing moment on its own (when high AoA) . And I guess when youre slow, like when landing, these forces (rolling by yawing) are less pronounced and so less effective.

But still, if  you had no chutre with you it would be the best chance you have

[LLv34 Jarsci]

Its pretty easy to control sailplanes without touching the stick. Just use rudder to turn, of course it will be slipturn but it turns nevertheless. Also using trim tab to control up and down nose attitude.

It just got boring one sunny day at 2000m and I tried it out. Works ok, with long final I can bring it home in one piece but flaring has to be done with stick, no trim enough at low speeds. Also engine torque is countered in motor planes with rudder and engine idling theres no torque so no problemo with cessnas either I think.

[Simaril]

would trim have had a programmed effeect with airelons gone? IRL of course no, but wonder if that's modelled?

[Guppy35]

Seems like I've read stories of multi engined bombers having their control cables shot up and losing aileron control.  The pilots managed some semblence of control with trim tabs, rudder and managing the engines to get themselves closer to home.

Dan/Slack

[GScholz]

The secondary effect of rudder input is roll, so it is quite possible to control roll with rudder. It is not easy to land though, but doable.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Simaril
would trim have had a programmed effeect with airelons gone? IRL of course no, but wonder if that's modelled?

Speaking from experience, in AH aileron trim does not work if the ailerons are gone.


I remember bring an N1K2-J home without elevators in AH1.  I managed to climb away from the Spitfire that done it to me and then porpoise back to base using throttle controls.  Landing was really delicate and I could not no so in a chosen direction, e.g. the runway, but had to land in the direction that had the aircraft level.  After I had landed I used the rudder to stear over to the runway for a successful landing.  The Spit pilot probably wondered what had happened to his kill.

[humble]

The united DC-10 had no rudder or elevator control (I'm pretty certain) and was still controllable simply thru throttle management...obviously the plane was in trim at the time of the incident and would of been unrecoverable otherwise. I think they had ailerons however (not sure however...all control cables might have been routed thru tail). Personally I dont think you'd have any real problems in RL either as long as you were careful (and had enough time in the plane to begin with)....

As for the 737, both the colorado springs and pittsburgh planes were landing at the time. The colorado springs plane had the "reversed" rudder hard over I believe...the one in Pittsburgh might have had a similiar incident but I believe the final report atrributed it to pilot error after an unusual attitude event initiated by a microburst...the plane was at something like 232 kts for over a minute...pilots simply never unloaded the airframe...

[Krusty]

I don't know about that 737 info, but I was watching a rather interesting documentary about it a month ago, or so. May have been a different plane, but I swear it was the 737, and on takeoff (they found the wreckage off the end of the runway, in the trees)

[GScholz]

The DC-10 had lost all hydraulics due to an explosion in the tail engine. All they had was engine management and pumping fuel around the various tanks. Luckily one of the passengers was a MD engineer who had been experimenting with controlling planes with engine management alone.