Author Topic: RAF view  (Read 513 times)

Offline Tony Williams

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« on: September 05, 2004, 08:21:33 PM »
FWIW, in 1942 some senior RAF fighter pilots expressed the view that the 109's nose-mounted armament was superior to the Spitfire's, even though it was lighter, because they felt it was easier to hit with.

Of course, you do wonder WHY they thought that, given that none of them can have flown 109s in combat to make a comparison - maybe it was just the usual feeling that enemy equipment was better...

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Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2004, 08:22:38 PM »
Sorry  - this was meant to add on to the Spitfire cannon thread but I must have pressed the wrong button...

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2004, 01:59:55 AM »
I think we can take it as an act of god to keep that thread clean. ;)

Anyway, the question is interesting, and so would be to see some model of wing mounted guns vs. nose concentrated guns. Soviets and Germans preferred the latter, for it`s obvious advantages in long range deflection shots and concentration of firepower. US pilots also seem to praise the P-38 for having all guns in the nose, and so did Soviet pilots for the Yak/Lagg.

Further it also brings less recoil and sideways deviation from the recoil, more ammo can be stowed for the guns. The only downplay is that fewer guns could be mounted, which makes high caliber weapons an obvious choice. But what if it`s wing mounted cannons vs. a nose cannon? Werner Moelders would say he would give two wing mounted cannons for one nose mounted one, Adolph Galland says the opposite - even though Moelder`s comparison is with the lower velocity MG FF, and Galland critized the smaller caliber MG151/15 nose cannon on the early 109F..

Personally, I`d go with nose cannon, as long as anti-fighter engagement is expected. The targets are agile, so accuracy is important, and the concentrated hits on a small place of the relatively fragile airframe will make structural failure more likely than spraying it all over. 2-3 cannon rounds on the same spot may weaken the structure critically, but you can`t expect the same happen when the hits are spread out from one wingtip to another.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2004, 02:48:20 AM »
Seems like I've read stories where some of the LW pilots tried to hang on to their E7s with the wing cannon, thinking the 109F didn't have the hitting power.

And of course there's Galland's own specially modified 109F-2/U with the wing mounted cannon.

I wonder how that one performed?

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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2004, 08:04:08 AM »
That’s because of the 15mm in the F2.

Even so what the nose mounted 15mm was still "easier" to hit with.

The 2 x mgff/m was probably more lethal.

The F4 with 1 x mg151/20mm was certainly "lethal enough".

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2004, 08:33:56 AM »
What I am wondering is why they didn`t keep wing MG FFs as an option? The guns were light and short,  ideal to be mounted in 109s wing without having to hole to main spar. Poor ballistics would be hardly a problem, considering they`d mount them only when heavy firepower was preferred (ie. bombers), and they`d come with less drag and weight than the gunpods. The latter had advantage with more powerful guns with better (and similiar!) ballistcs and twice the ammo load..

Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2004, 11:52:35 PM »
Another puzzle is why they didn't fit 13mm MG 131 in the wings. These were so small and light they would have had no noticeable effect on performance, yet would have provided a useful boost in firepower - and had a similar trajectory to the MG 151/20.

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Offline Purzel

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2004, 02:20:51 AM »
Concerning why they didnt put the 20mm guns in the wings of the F-Version onward:

AFAIK they redesigned the wing so that a placement IN the wings was not possible anymore.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2004, 02:49:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Purzel
Concerning why they didnt put the 20mm guns in the wings of the F-Version onward:

AFAIK they redesigned the wing so that a placement IN the wings was not possible anymore.


How'd Galland manage to have two with cannon in the wings then?

Always wondered about that

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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2004, 04:15:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
Another puzzle is why they didn't fit 13mm MG 131 in the wings. These were so small and light they would have had no noticeable effect on performance, yet would have provided a useful boost in firepower - and had a similar trajectory to the MG 151/20.


I guess they didn`t want to mess around with those long, small caliber belts with many rounds, see how crazy system there was for belt feed on early 109`s wings. Also, I am not sure the MG 131 was around when the 109F was developed (1940, it was in action by october)

I suppose they developed a mindset that the nose cannon was good for most purposes, and if they need the extra, they won`t make a half-good solution, and go right over for MG 151/20s as gondolas.

As for the wings, they certainly could take weapons, the basic internal structure did not change much compared to the 109E, ie. even MK 108s were fitted inside (they were short enough again to be fitted into the leading edge w/o messing with the main spar)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2004, 07:05:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim

As for the wings, they certainly could take weapons, the basic internal structure did not change much compared to the 109E, ie. even MK 108s were fitted inside (they were short enough again to be fitted into the leading edge w/o messing with the main spar)


One has to ask, why the MK108s were not fitted earlier, instead of attaching the gun pods?

Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2004, 07:13:39 AM »
This is just from memory, but I believe that the 109F wings were designed not to take guns - Galland's involved some metal bashing  to fit them. The 109K wings were modified again and would take the MK 108.

Of course, if a decision had been taken to fit wing guns to the F or G, then the wing could have been modified. However, as the wing guns these planes sometimes carried were just an optional add-on, they probably felt that it was simpler to use pods.

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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2004, 09:10:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Also, I am not sure the MG 131 was around when the 109F was developed (1940, it was in action by october)
 


MG131 was defintely around at that time, some Fw190A-0 prototypes had them as wing root weapons.

Additinally Galland had another special 109F, this one with 2 MG131 in the cowl instead of the MG17...  It was also a much cleaner insallation than the G6 MG131 bulges 2 years later...

Personally I think they should have replaced the MG17 sooner in 109 and got rid of the light cowl weapons entirely on 190A... Too much weight fo so little firepower once planes got better protected.

My ideal german fighter would be armed with three MG151/20, two above and one inside the engine.  The engine cannon could also be MK108 or MK103.    

Give it a DB603 or a late model DB605, keep it light enough to climb 4,500fpm and turn at least like 109G6, give it the high speed control and roll rate of 190 and the good stall handling of 109.  Speed with this setup would easily be 450mph... This type of fighter was possible in 1942 and it woyld have been a world beater even in 45...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 09:20:18 AM by GRUNHERZ »