Russia, I've hard this some where before.

[Toad]

Look at the situation; the Russians/Chechens is comparable to the US/"anti-Iraq" factions in Iraq.

The US has tried the less aggressive approach. Rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure, setting up free elections, donating billions upon billions. This approach has borne little if any fruit.

The Russians have be much more aggressive. The shelling of Grozny is a good example. This approach has borne little if any fruit.

From my perspective, neither of these approaches has been very successful. So here we have two "real time" examples, from opposite ends of the spectrum, of dealing with the problem of terrorism.

Neither one is very successful. So.......... now what?

[airguard]

Originally posted by Toad
Look at the situation; the Russians/Chechens is comparable to the US/"anti-Iraq" factions in Iraq.

The US has tried the less aggressive approach. Rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure, setting up free elections, donating billions upon billions. This approach has borne little if any fruit.

The Russians have be much more aggressive. The shelling of Grozny is a good example. This approach has borne little if any fruit.

From my perspective, neither of these approaches has been very successful. So here we have two "real time" examples, from opposite ends of the spectrum, of dealing with the problem of terrorism.

Neither one is very successful. So.......... now what?

I do wonder about that too toad good question.

Leave the morons alone and let them kill eachother ?
for me that is good enough.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ahh yes, deport all the Chechens again..  That really showed them the first time...

Yes, bloody Russians! It was absolutely different from "deporting" 350,000 Serbs from Krajna, that was OK because it was "approverd by the US"!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by airguard
Leave the morons alone and let them kill eachother ?
for me that is good enough.

It was tried in 1996-99. They were left alone, Federal troops withdrawn, Yeltsin and Maskhadov signed a treaty. In 1999 there was nothing left to steal and rob in Chechnya so they started to rob neighbouring Cossack lands in the North and invaded Dagestan in the East, and were kicked out of there by local militants with the assistance of Russian army. Immediately after that they started blowing up apartment homes in Moscow and other cities (several hundreed victims killed by explosions wile sleeping in their homes).

[GRUNHERZ]

You do undertand how your call for deportation of Chechens to siberia in that other post makes what you just said incredible hypocritical....  But hey, have another glass of wine...

[Wotan]

There's a good argument that the Russians haven't been tough enough. The point no longer is "why do they hate us" but how can we stop them from killing our families. That’s the responsibility that the Russian government has to its citizenry.

One possible solution is to reach a political agreement with more moderate forces and  provide this group with the tools, authority and force necessary to police itself while at the same time establishing an atmosphere of hope so that less folks would be inclined to support or at least die for the terrorists cause. In the short term this may mean an escalation in attacks as the terrorists hope to derail any political solution. Thsi maybe unacceptable to the Russian people.

This is similar to what we (the US) are trying in Iraq.

The second is along the same line as the Israelis. Israel is shackled to a degree by the same moral aversion to total war as the west. I say to a degree because it’s obvious to anyone that Israel is much more brutal in some of their responses then the west.

Should Russia go this route then they will need to go further then even Israel. It’s too large a country to build walls around its border. What caused this situation no longer matters just like it no longer mattered after 9/11. At this point in time there's no getting along just to get along, it’s kill or be killed.

Pavel is right in that total war means total war. Any half measure only feeds the terrorists and ensures a continuing war. No matter how much you feel the Russians deserve what they get due to their actions toward the Chechens the answer for the Russian people will never be to allow these attacks to continue as some sort of accepted punishment.

They have a right to demand that their government keep them safe. Their government has an obligation to see to it that this never happens again.

[airguard]

I think every grown up man in the world should buy or (steal) himselve a weapon.

then start shooting at his neigbour cause of all the diffrences they have and all the difficulties they had.

that will problaby solve all problems in the world ?

(this means i give up lol ) go on guys I am clueless.

[Toad]

Well, it's obvious that our approach in Iraq will never result in a "quick fix".

Will the Russian people put up with it for as long as it takes?

Would WE put up with it if what's happening in Iraq was happening just across one of our border and the incidents the Russians have suffered were happening in the US?

It's certainly not beyond reason that a similar school incident could happen here tomorrow. Our schools are certainly "soft targets" and it wouldn't take that many people to achieve a significant terrorist strike. Guns and explosives could easily come across the border as part of a coke or smoke shipment. The pieces are here and so is the opportunity.

What do we do then?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Toad
Well, it's obvious that our approach in Iraq will never result in a "quick fix".

Will the Russian people put up with it for as long as it takes?

Would WE put up with it if what's happening in Iraq was happening just across one of our border and the incidents the Russians have suffered were happening in the US?

It's certainly not beyond reason that a similar school incident could happen here tomorrow. Our schools are certainly "soft targets" and it wouldn't take that many people to achieve a significant terrorist strike. Guns and explosives could easily come across the border as part of a coke or smoke shipment. The pieces are here and so is the opportunity.

What do we do then?

Flatten a mid eastern city?

[airguard]

Originally posted by airguard
I think every grown up man in the world should buy or (steal) himselve a weapon.

then start shooting at his neigbour cause of all the diffrences they have and all the difficulties they had.

that will problaby solve all problems in the world ?

(this means i give up lol ) go on guys I am clueless.

this always helps Grun

(well it deleted the vikings in their time 800-1200)
they did that all over and all over again and boy it worked

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You do undertand how your call for deportation of Chechens to siberia in that other post makes what you just said incredible hypocritical....  But hey, have another glass of wine...

I call for permanent exile for criminals according to Russian laws.

Your compatriots didn't give poor Serbs a single chance. 350,000 Serbs were "deported" or eliminated by a single action.

[GRUNHERZ]

Which provision in Russian law allows for mass deporations of whole ethinc groups to very alien and unfavorible climates?

Please understand, I'm not at all doubting that Ruissia has such laws. I'm just curious exactly which ones they are...

BTW If chechens are so dumb, backwards, ignorant and useless and lazy a people as you so often say why dont you just let them go and give them their independance? Certainly the ols Soviet Union lost many economically vital states post 1991 so evenn if chechnya has some resources why the big fuss?  Again especially considering the mere hairy growling subhumans you claim reside there..

[OIO]

why grunz, that sounds like Quebec

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Which provision in Russian law allows for mass deporations of whole ethinc groups to very alien and unfavorible climates?

Please understand, I'm not at all doubting that Ruissia has such laws. I'm just curious exactly which ones they are...

There are laws that allow to sentence them for illegal weapon posession and other funny things. It's up to our judicial system to choos an appropriate place for their punishment.

Again: I do not want "whole ethinc groups" to be deported, we are not a fascist state, and traditionally tolerant (Russian Empire or USSR never had national segregation or opression according to nationality). I want criminals punished, and our current system fails to do it.

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
BTW If chechens are so dumb, backwards, ignorant and useless and lazy a people as you so often say why dont you just let them go and give them their independance? Certainly the ols Soviet Union lost many economically vital states post 1991 so evenn if chechnya has some resources why the big fuss?  Again especially considering the mere hairy growling subhumans you claim reside there..

After they were "pacified" in the middle of XIX century - they became valuable citizens of the Empire. Did you know that Nikolay II personal bodyguards were mostly Chechens. Problem is that they behave well only when they see force, not weakness.

Grun, you again fail to read what I post, or there is something wrong with my English. I already posted this above in this thread:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by airguard
Leave the morons alone and let them kill eachother ?
for me that is good enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It was tried in 1996-99. They were left alone, Federal troops withdrawn, Yeltsin and Maskhadov signed a treaty. In 1999 there was nothing left to steal and rob in Chechnya so they started to rob neighbouring Cossack lands in the North and invaded Dagestan in the East, and were kicked out of there by local militants with the assistance of Russian army. Immediately after that they started blowing up apartment homes in Moscow and other cities (several hundreed victims killed by explosions wile sleeping in their homes).

[GRUNHERZ]

USSR never had national segregation or opression according to nationality

You mean Stalins deportations of huge poulations didnt happend?