Author Topic: Explain this and win the prize!  (Read 24505 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #180 on: November 16, 2004, 06:39:25 AM »
Gripen,

What is the setup for the Spitfire in your drag polar?  Is it a wooden model, actual plane, and if so what varient?

Quote
The values of e calculated from the wind tunnel data and Fw data:


Don't match the aeronautical engineers calculations of .87 e factor for the same data for the FW.  I would say something is off in yours.

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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« Reply #181 on: November 16, 2004, 07:55:50 AM »
I have touched the dihedral (somewhere in some thread) as a possible factor.
Why?
It's bound to reduce lift. A dihedral of 90 degs would for instance produce no upwards lift at all.
It's basically a stability enhancer, however it must effect lift, and therefore drag, be it little or not.
At the wingtips one has upwash, right outside of it. This will probably give the tip a bit of a push upwards.
(what turned out to be strong enough to bend the Hurricane's wings upwards when dived to the limit)
So I'm wondering where this would come into the equation.
For some reason, a typical dihedral is somewhere between 4% and 6%.
Any comments?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #182 on: November 16, 2004, 09:42:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
I have touched the dihedral (somewhere in some thread) as a possible factor.
Why?
It's bound to reduce lift. A dihedral of 90 degs would for instance produce no upwards lift at all.
It's basically a stability enhancer, however it must effect lift, and therefore drag, be it little or not.
At the wingtips one has upwash, right outside of it. This will probably give the tip a bit of a push upwards.
(what turned out to be strong enough to bend the Hurricane's wings upwards when dived to the limit)
So I'm wondering where this would come into the equation.
For some reason, a typical dihedral is somewhere between 4% and 6%.
Any comments?


As I recall from ground school, dihedral enhances directional stability.  If a sideways air load strikes the top of one wing, it must strike the bottom of the other.  This rolls the plane into the sideways load, maintaining direction.  Another commonly used explanation is that when the plane rolls, the lift of the high wing decreases as the lift of the low wing increases--at least until the low wing becomes horizontal, at which time the high wing lift decreases faster than the low wing's lift.  The high wing will always have a steeper angle to the horizon, you see.

The wingtip vortices are ALL drag--any lift they (arguably) provide is overshadowed by the huge drag penalty--remember that moving air is work (in the sense of basic physics) and work requires energy.  Many modern planes have wingtip end plates to decrease the amount of spanwise spillage--the actual cause of vortices.  Theoretically,this reduces drag and also decreases the strength of the vortex that has been  blamed for so many "clear air turbulence" accidents when light planes follow heavy planes too closely.

According to mr. trigonometry, by the way, dihedral should have a very small effect on lift.  Doing the math, a 4 degree dihedral would decrease lift by 7% in straight, level flight.



shubie
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 10:00:12 AM by rshubert »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2004, 10:00:28 AM »
Nice! :)
So if there is a force acting to push the tip upwards, it is wasted energy right?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2004, 10:36:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Nice! :)
So if there is a force acting to push the tip upwards, it is wasted energy right?


No, but if there is AIRFLOW upward at the tip--caused by high pressure air under the wing trying to go to the low pressure above the wing--that is work being done by the wing that doesn't help the plane fly--the very defintion of drag.  Pushing the tip up is lift, if it isn't BENDING the tip or the wing.  If the tip bends, it is (again) drag.



shubie

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2004, 11:10:21 AM »
Speaking of washout, could somebody explain to me the theory behind it ? Or point towards a link about it ?
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

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« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2004, 11:56:50 AM »
It's basically the air washing outwards towards the end of the wing.
I'm sure that rshubert can word it better, but that's basically it.


Regards

Angus
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2004, 12:30:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
It's basically the air washing outwards towards the end of the wing.
I'm sure that rshubert can word it better, but that's basically it.


Regards

Angus


Washout is a deliberate bending of the wingtip downward (chordwise) so that the angle of attack at the wingtip is less than the angle of attack at the wingroot.  The idea is to get the wingtip to stall AFTER the wingroot, so that you have aileron control right up to the stall.  If the root stalls first, the plane will have less tendency to drop a wing at the stall, since the pilot will be able to apply aileron to counteract the roll induced by torque, prop wash, and/or P factor.  A similar effect can be seen via the use of fixed slots, like we see on the Me-163 Komets.  They "blow" air over the upper wing surface, maintaining smooth airflow over the wing at a high(er) angle of attack.  I don't know if the Komet has any washout in combination with the slots.

I think washout is only a couple of degrees, usually.  And it is factored into the lift calculations for a particular airfoil design.


shubie

Offline Angus

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« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2004, 03:20:08 PM »
So, if you have a dihedral, you have to increase washout right?

rshubert, either you are very well read, or a pro, must be.

I am honoured to be exchanging words with you M8
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2004, 04:26:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

What is the setup for the Spitfire in your drag polar?  Is it a wooden model, actual plane, and if so what varient?


It's a model. I have given the source above, get it if you are interested.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Don't match the aeronautical engineers calculations of .87 e factor for the same data for the FW.  I would say something is off in yours.


The Fw data gives value 1,24 for K at climb flying condition, that results e factor value 0,78. There is no other result with this value of the K.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2004, 05:01:20 PM »
Quote
It's a model. I have given the source above, get it if you are interested.


Yes I am interested.  You do know that a model is not worth comparing to the real plane.  It would be interesting to compare with the FW-190V5g model test's.  Pointless, but interesting.  

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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« Reply #191 on: November 16, 2004, 05:30:03 PM »
How do you define the E factor in maximally effective english anyway?

Not kidding :p
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline joeblogs

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« Reply #192 on: November 16, 2004, 09:30:18 PM »
There is ample evidence that the Spitfire wing was reletively hard to make. The spar itself required very precise machining of several interlocking tubes. Supermarine had a good deal of trouble sub-contracting the work.

One would not choose the Spitfire layout as an economical way to enter into mass production of fighter aircraft in 1940.

-blogs


Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Seems that Mitchell ended to the elliptic form for several reasons and need to place the wheels, guns and ammunition inside wing are probably among these. Otherwise, it's quite probably that they did not think mass production at all; in the mid thirties very few types reached large production numbers.

Regarding stall, the Spitfire had generally good stall characters like the Bf 109 ie no tendency to tip stall.

gripen

Offline gripen

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« Reply #193 on: November 17, 2004, 03:48:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You do know that a model is not worth comparing to the real plane.


I don't know any particular reason why the wind tunnel results should not be comparable; basicly it's size of the model which changes and how clean the model is. The RAE data is for the Spitfire I and Allison Mustang, both are 1/6 scale models. I don't know how the Fw data is generated but the dataset contains drag data for separate parts of the airframe so it might be from smaller size model test too.

In most cases the wind tunnel data seems to be quite comparable with other wind tunnel tests but the flight tests seem to give lower values.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #194 on: November 17, 2004, 04:18:59 AM »
Quote
In most cases the wind tunnel data seems to be quite comparable with other wind tunnel tests but the flight tests seem to give lower values.


Windtunnel data on a model has little to do with the actual aircraft with the exception of making general assesments.  You certainly cannot take exact values off it.  Ask Hitech.


You can say:

This design will fly and be stable.
This design will be "X" fast in level flight
etc..

No whether they hold true or on can only be determined by the actual aircraft.  Drag data would have to come from an actual  aircraft in order to have any kind of meaning.

Quote
The RAE data is for the Spitfire I and Allison Mustang, both are 1/6 scale models.


Completely worthless for comparision.  We could compare the wooden model of the FW-190 with them but that would be a complete waste of time as well.

Quote
In most cases the wind tunnel data seems to be quite comparable with other wind tunnel tests but the flight tests seem to give lower values.


Ahh, that explains a lot.

Crumpp