Author Topic: Explain this and win the prize!  (Read 23207 times)

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #420 on: January 11, 2005, 04:30:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
The good point in the parabolic drag polar is that it has a theoretical explanation in the lifting line theory. I could form a formula, say the form Cd=Cd0+X1*Cl^3+X2*Cl^2 (X1 and X2 being constants) or something, which might work better at low and high Cl values, but such formula has no theoretical background.

Yep, but take a look at these three drag polars.



You can see by inspection, that only the NACA 0006 can be modeled with a parabolic polar. The NACA 4412 might yield to curve fitting, and because it has two distinct curved portions with a portion of high curvature between, there is a good chance that the slope of dCd/dCl^2 would have two distinct straight line portions, so it could be treated with two e values, one for each part of the envelope (check your copy of Pope’s book). However, the laminar flow wing with its classic drag bucket won’t yield to either approach. In those cases, a parabolic model is only good for one out of three of them, so a parabolic model may have a good basis in theory, but it is more useful in the classroom than it is in practical aerodynamics. The good news is that all three of those polars can be modeled in exactly the same way by aero engineers working directly from the raw data, and each can be represented with almost any degree of fidelity required, despite the discontinuities.

Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Anyway, I've been under impression that in the AH the drag rise is modeled with AoA ie not by making some kind of Cl based model.

I agree, AH has an excellent flight model, that responds well to classical analysis.

Hope that helps...

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Offline gripen

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« Reply #421 on: January 12, 2005, 03:21:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy

You can see by inspection, that only the NACA 0006 can be modeled with a parabolic polar. The NACA 4412 might yield to curve fitting, and because it has two distinct curved portions with a portion of high curvature between, there is a good chance that the slope of dCd/dCl^2 would have two distinct straight line portions, so it could be treated with two e values, one for each part of the envelope (check your copy of Pope’s book). However, the laminar flow wing with its classic drag bucket won’t yield to either approach. In those cases, a parabolic model is only good for one out of three of them, so a parabolic model may have a good basis in theory, but it is more useful in the classroom than it is in practical aerodynamics.


True, but section data contains just variation of the profile drag in 2D. If we go 3D and ad induced drag, the polar of the laminar flow wing look much more familiar because the parabolic rise of the induced drag is much stronger than the rise of the section drag (from Abbott&vonDoenhoff):



Parabolic estimation can be used but accuracy is not best possible because the shape of the profile drag rise shows a bit in the Cd/Cl^2 curve.

gripen

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #422 on: January 12, 2005, 03:32:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Parabolic estimation can be used but accuracy is not best possible because the shape of the profile drag rise shows a bit in the Cd/Cl^2 curve.

gripen

Agreed.

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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #423 on: January 14, 2005, 07:47:42 AM »
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Gripen says:
 Funny thing in your theory is...blah blah blah


Nice bait and switch.  

Again Gripen it is NASA you are saying it is wrong not me.  

Don't try and kill the messenger just because you do not like the message.

 
Quote
The wing-tip shape, being at the point of production of the tip vortices, appears to be of more importance in minimizing tip vortex formation and thus minimizing induced drag.


http://history.nasa.gov/SP-367/chapt4.htm#f61

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #424 on: January 18, 2005, 10:07:44 PM »
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Gripen says:
So I quess this claim is again in the same category as the "wet lifting area" ie you are talking about a thing which does not exist.



David Lednicer was nice enough to answer this question:

 
Quote
Sorry for the delay - I just got back from a week's vacation.

Usually, the wing area of an aircraft includes the part of the wing buried
inside the fuselage.  "Wetted Lifting Area" refers to just the part of the
wing that is exposed.

-Dave


Which is exactly how I was using it.

Crumpp

Offline joeblogs

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« Reply #425 on: January 26, 2005, 08:59:29 PM »
there are now more posts in this thread than data points...

-blogs

Offline Angus

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« Reply #426 on: January 27, 2005, 05:41:21 PM »
So, netto wing area, so to speak of.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #427 on: March 30, 2005, 03:51:32 AM »


For everyone's viewing pleasure here is couple Fw 190 drag polars measured in the Chalais-Meudon. Earlier measurement  (from the FW report 6006) results e factor value about 0,69 at Cl range 0,2-1 and later measurement (from the report UM21 1) results e factor value about 0,55 at same Cl range. Early measurements by the Germans in the Chalais-Meudon had a systematical error due to wrong correction factors.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #428 on: March 30, 2005, 04:15:31 AM »
You might want to figure out how to read the plot Gripen.
Keep it up.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #429 on: March 30, 2005, 04:28:56 AM »
Dear Crumpp,
I wonder what you mean, the report actually contains the Ca and Cw values in the written form so there is no need to read plot.

Regarding the question if the the Ta 152H was tested in the Chalais-Meudon, the chart below is quite self explaining.

gripen


Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #430 on: March 30, 2005, 04:44:01 AM »
Quote
Earlier measurement (from the FW report 6006) results e factor value about 0,69 at Cl range 0,2-1 and later measurement (from the report UM21 1) results e factor value about 0,55 at same Cl range. Early measurements by the Germans in the Chalais-Meudon had a systematical error due to wrong correction factors.


Gripen facts are there is nothing wrong with "other plot".  

Why don't you post the aircraft set up?

What you have here is the investigation into the FW-190G and ways to reduce it's drag of the wing mounted Zusatzkraftstoffbehalter's..

Of course in your mind the Germans would have been unable to perform a calculation yet in mid thirties the Supermarine was able to a use 1/6th scale wooden model to 100 percent accurately glean 1 for 1 comparable data with a production model Spitfire.....


Secondly how are your figuring your "e" factor out.  As we have seen from this thread there is a wide variation for e factor based on the formula and your scale used.  

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #431 on: March 30, 2005, 05:13:40 AM »
Dear Crummp,
From the report:

"Der Schlechtere Verlauf der Polaren kann von der Korrektur infolge der Strahlneigung herrühren, die nach früheren Messungen mit 1,5deg angegeben war, nach neueren Messungen aber 0,25deg beträgt."

Basicly all early measurements by the Germans in the Chalais-Meudon were systematically wrong due to this error.

Regarding the condition of the plane see the picture below. In both cases the measured plane was in the clean condition.

The system to calculate e from the polar (or what ever Cd/Cl data)  is described several times above. It takes just couple minutes if you understand what you are doing.

gripen


Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #432 on: March 30, 2005, 05:33:35 PM »
You need to get a good translation of that passage Gripen!

Keep trying though....

Wonder what those racks are that the supports are attached too under the wings???

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #433 on: March 31, 2005, 02:47:05 AM »
Oh well, the report is quite clear and it also gives a description how the Germans discovered the error:

"Bei der Auswertung der Widerstandsbeizahlen wurde die Strahlneigung die nach neueren Messungen eines symmetrischen Profils in Normal- und Rückenlage 0,25deg nach unten beträgt, berücksichtigt."

Regarding the condition of the plane the picture is clear (original is even more clear); there is no other supports than the test stand which is the same as used in the earlier measurements. Besides the polars actually indicate that the plane in the later measurement was in the cleaner condition than in the early measurements; at Cd0 the drag is a bit lower. Therefore it's safe to say that differences between the polars are mainly caused by the different correction factors just like the report says.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #434 on: March 31, 2005, 03:17:07 AM »
Gripen the report says the lower values are wrong due to the error.

Think about what the error is Gripen.  What do you think a .25 degree AoA will do to your induced drag??

Quote
there is no other supports than the test stand which is the same as used in the earlier measurements.


It's not the supports, its the racks under the wing.  The Focke-Wulf tragers are clearly visible in the photograph, Gripen.

Peformance differences between an FW-190G and FW-190A:



As for your contention about the Ta -152H being a calculation.  In multiple plane report experimental A/C sometimes are shown as calculated curves.  It does not mean that every A/C on the report is a calculation.  For example several curves on this report are calculations.  Many of them are not:



All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 03:31:45 AM by Crumpp »