Author Topic: Explain this and win the prize!  (Read 24981 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #330 on: November 29, 2004, 05:43:41 PM »
Quote
We have data showing most in the 190's favour maybe (?). However some Spits seem to claw themselves in front.


There are a lot of factors.  Temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, power variance, finish of the aircraft, etc...

There is a natural variance in all manufactured products.  Could be the riveter was having a good day and just did an exceptional job on that particular plane.  Or maybe the finish guy just got a really poor paint job with lots of orange peel etc.  Anyway you get the idea.

 
So all planes will vary within a couple of percentage points from a center mark.  You get a really good one paired with a really bad one and your results can be completely different from the truth.  That is why I did ALL the Spitfire Mk IX's I could find good verifiable data on.

That sound right to you, Dweeb?  You probably have some good insight into this phenomenon.

I think if we had a wider base of FW-190 data we could get an even better picture.  I have quite a few more flight test graphs.  Think I might run the data through them and see what comes of it.


Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 05:46:59 PM by Crumpp »

Offline gripen

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« Reply #331 on: December 15, 2004, 02:34:17 PM »
After some search I found the source for Wood's formula:

Karl D. Wood (1935):"Technical Aerodynamics"

The formula:

ew = 1/(0,97+0,033*R)

is for rectangular wings only.It is directly derived from Glauert corrections and it is not supposed to work with other wing shapes (tapered etc.) nor it won't give directly the efficiency factor of the whole airframe. Wood describes estimation method for a whole airfame but it is based also on drag coefficient and fuselage shape. Also NADC formula seems to be for a straight untapered wing only.

Basicly these formulas are not really generalized formulas but for certain wing shapes and these can't be used to estimate e factor of the whole airframe except in the case of the rectangular flying wing.

As for additional info here  is some  e factor values from VL archives:

VL Pyörremyrsky 0,74 (wind tunnel data, 1/6 model)
VL Puuska 0,77 (apparently calculation)
VL Humu 0,80 (calculation)

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #332 on: December 15, 2004, 02:40:03 PM »
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is for rectangular wings only.It is directly derived from Glauert corrections and it is not supposed to work with other wing shapes (tapered etc.) nor it won't give directly the efficiency factor of the whole airframe. Wood describes estimation method for a whole airfame but it is based also on drag coefficient and fuselage shape. Also NADC formula seems to be for a straight untapered wing only.


Do you even READ your Perkins&Hage??

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #333 on: December 15, 2004, 02:48:43 PM »
Crumpp,
What about Perkins&Hage?

gripen

Offline gripen

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« Reply #334 on: December 21, 2004, 04:16:59 PM »
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Originally posted by Badboy
However, the formulae presented by Professor Wood is for a taper ratio of 0.57 which yields an almost elliptical lift distribution, which is why it fits the experimental data so closely over a wide range of examples. Most WWII aircraft had a taper ratio close to that value (Me109 was approx 0.52) because the designers knew about the benefits of elliptical lift distribution and that it could be achieved quite closely with a wing of that taper, that’s why a formulae that only includes aspect ratio could still be of such good practical use.


Here is the scan from the "Technical Aerodynamics" (p.120):



The formula is not for tapered wings with certain taper ratio but simply for rectangular wings and here is a quote from the page 36 (above the part Badboy quoted in another thread):

"In the practical airplane calculations the graphs for tapered wings may be assumed to lie between the graphs for rectangular and elliptical wings. For ratios of tip chord to root chord between 0.2 and 0.6, the tapered wing has practically the same characteristics as the elliptical wing."

Shortly the formula is not supposed to be a generalized formula to calculate e factor for wings as Badboy presents above, it just helps to estime e for the wing with the above figure. For entire airframe the effect of the fuselage and other surfaces should be added.

gripen

Offline Angus

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« Reply #335 on: December 21, 2004, 06:56:02 PM »
A tapered wing never equals the elliptical wing in lift distribution, however, it simulates it to within acceptable limits, giving a tremendous bonus in manufacture may I add.
A tapered wing may also present a much better aspect ratio.

However, the ellipse always pays the least induced drag penalty for the given total lift. Even if a similar tapered wing has a more favourable aspect ratio!

That's why it's partially called an aerobatic-wing

Then, there is the chord.
I am curious of the benefit of wide chord.
Would that be lift while banking?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #336 on: December 23, 2004, 07:02:47 PM »
Gripen,

I’ve only just realized where we appear to have our lines crossed and what has caused some of the confusion that has crept into this thread, and I think I can clear it up. Throughout this thread you have been questioning why the formulae posted seem to give values of the e factor that are too high, and that don’t correspond to empirical data… You said this in a previous message…

Quote
Originally posted by gripen
All I say above is that generalized formulas by Wood and NADC seem to give too high value of the e factor for WWII fighters and this conclusion is backed up by empirical data.

I didn’t realize what was happening until I saw your recent posts, and I think I can explain what you are seeing. We have been referring to Oswald’s efficiency factor, (Airplane Efficiency factor) and we have been using the character e to represent it, which is what normally happens, but there is a catch... There are two values associated with it and they are not the same, and they don’t measure the same things. Take another look at the explanation I posted previously:

Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
The number normally represented by the character e in induced drag calculations was originally known as Oswald’s efficiency factor, and his original paper is available for download from the NACA report server. More commonly it has a component of parasite drag lumped in with it and is just called the airplane efficiency factor and can be estimated depending on the aspect ratio, taper ratio, sweep angle and twist. Theoretically an elliptical wing would have an efficiency factor of 1, meaning that it will have a coefficient of induced drag close to the theoretical maximum. Even though it is a function of aspect ratio, sweepback angle, taper ratio, camber, Mach number and twist, the largest influence on the wing of a WWII fighter with very little sweep or twist comes from aspect ratio and taper ratio and so there are approximate formulae for estimating e that only include aspect and taper ratio, and even more approximate methods that only include aspect ratio. The important thing you must appreciate is that they are only approximate. But better than just assuming a constant value for every aircraft..

You might remember that, but the important point is where I explain that the airplane efficiency factor has a component of parasite drag lumped in with it. In your copy of Wood’s book you can see this, and I’ll point out the references to Wood and Perkins & Hage in a moment. Firstly, let me explain what happens… If you plot a graph of parasite drag and induced drag you can see that they both vary with the coefficient of lift. This is expressed mathematically in 2-82 at the top of page 93 of Perkins & Hage. Normally the two terms that vary with lift are lumped together, and when you do that, you are combining the induced drag from the wing, and induced drag due to a component of the parasite drag resulting from the lifting capability of the fuselage and the tail, in fact from the aircraft as a whole. In the normal parabolic drag polar, the accounting is done that way so that all the lift related components can be lumped together in a single term like the one in 2-83 on the same page. The problem is that they are not always combined in the same way, and when the wing is being treated in isolation, during airfoil theory for example, you may see the induced drag for the wing expressed using a value for e that does not include the effects of the lift dependant component of the parasite drag for the fuselage or tail, or anything other than the induced drag of the wing. Wood does both in his book and he uses the term ew with the subscript w to indicate a value for the wing only, and he uses e by itself for the airplane efficiency factor for the aircraft as a whole. If you look at empirical data, such as the drag polar from a flight test, you will see the later value, if you see a drag polar for an airfoil you will see the former value. I believe this has caused much of the confusion in this thread, because we have been discussing two different things, and of course the formulae posted were for the wing, which is why you have noticed that those values are too high. I hope that clears up that misunderstanding.

Now I would like to address your following point:
   
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
The formula is not for tapered wings with certain taper ratio but simply for rectangular wings and here is a quote from the page 36 (above the part Badboy quoted in another thread):

"In the practical airplane calculations the graphs for tapered wings may be assumed to lie between the graphs for rectangular and elliptical wings. For ratios of tip chord to root chord between 0.2 and 0.6, the tapered wing has practically the same characteristics as the elliptical wing."

What Wood is saying in your quote is that the value for all wings will fall between the two graphs shown below, with elliptical wings at one extreme and rectangular at the other.



You can see from this graph, that the value for wings with various other taper ratios can be determined simply by choosing a line between them. So in effect you can have a generalized formula for any taper. But a formulae that only yields a value for the wing alone. However, Wood goes on to say in the part of the quote that you appear to have left off:

" Glauert gives corrections for tapered wings as a function of the amount of taper, but this refinement is believed to be not justified in practice."

When this thread started, you were only asking for someone to explain how e could be estimated from aspect ratio, however, if you wish to include taper ratio as well, you can do it using a slightly different formulae, the formulae is:

e = (2083T – 1083)/(33R + 970) - 2.083T + 2.083

Where R is the aspect ratio and T is the taper ratio between 1 for a rectangular wing and 0.52 equivalent to an elliptical wing (you can only use values between 1 and 0.52 in this equation). So for example, if you calculate for an aspect ratio of 6 and a taper ratio of 0.8 you get a value for e = 0.92.  For an aircraft with a particular fuselage shape and size that could end up being closer to 0.83 for the whole aircraft.  

Glauert also published a very nice graph that allows you to determine e from both the aspect ratio and from the taper ratio, I can post it if that would be helpful?

But it is better to work from drag polars derived from flight test data.

Hope that helps…

Badboy
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Offline joeblogs

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« Reply #337 on: December 30, 2004, 02:50:04 PM »
That was the point, without the math, I made a long time ago..

-B


Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
Gripen,

I’ve only just realized where we appear to have our lines crossed and what has caused some of the confusion that has crept into this thread, and I think I can clear it up. Throughout this thread you have been questioning why the formulae posted seem to give values of the e factor that are too high, and that don’t correspond to empirical data… You said this in a previous message…

...

Badboy

Offline gripen

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« Reply #338 on: January 03, 2005, 05:27:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy

...however, if you wish to include taper ratio as well, you can do it using a slightly different formulae, the formulae is:

e = (2083T – 1083)/(33R + 970) - 2.083T + 2.083


This gives a better estimate than a formula you originally used which was just for rectangular wing. Anyway, most WWII fighters had some amount of washout  which should be counted if we want to determine e from the wing geometry and Glauert gives induced drag corrections for washout too.

Otherwise the effect of the fuselage seems to around 10% if calculated from the drag polars like in your example.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #339 on: January 03, 2005, 06:50:42 PM »
Gripen,

You keep just glossing over:

Quote
" Glauert gives corrections for tapered wings as a function of the amount of taper, but this refinement is believed to be not justified in practice."  



And

Quote
"For studies requiring a higher degree of accuracy, lifting-surface theories have been used [as opposed to lifting line theory], but generally it has been found that the additional complexity of these methods has not sufficiently improved the predictions to warrant common use." (NACA Report 921 - Theoretical Symmetric Span Loading at Subsonic Speeds for Wings Having Arbitrary Plan Form).



People have told you from the begining of this thread.  Before it was discovered you were using a wooden model and passing it off as the real thing.

The new formula changes the numbers but not the results.  Do the math and you will see.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: January 03, 2005, 06:55:31 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #340 on: January 03, 2005, 08:11:34 PM »
My dear Gentlemen.

A new year has started.

I looked over many a post, and I see some mistakes I've done.

I've seen some, others have done.
(luckily, much more, hehe)

I've seen arguments that always go in circles.

So, sometimes it's a sour apple to swallow, but how about putting some things aside and proceed.

I am proud of being "in the club" with so many of you fellows, for you promote things to learn from. And there is no end to learning.

So,
For instance, Crumpp and Gripen.
Sometimes you are fighting about almost nothing. And it always goes a bit bitter, instead of perhaps, useful, if you know what I mean.
Can't say I don't know this, just look at me and Izzy :D

Well, anyway, may these threads live on.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #341 on: January 03, 2005, 08:15:25 PM »
And a PS, since you are into the effect of tapered wings vs totally square ones, I might be able to help.
(Will have to go book-diving though)
The  (LIFT-) INDUCED drag will, if my memory serves me, be some 10% less with a moderately tapered wing.
The only 2D wingform with less induced drag is the ellipse.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #342 on: January 03, 2005, 11:42:42 PM »
Quote

" Glauert gives corrections for tapered wings as a function of the amount of taper, but this refinement is believed to be not justified in practice."


Well, actually the induced drag part of the Wood's formula for rectangular wings is based on Glauert corrections. In addition Anderson (1936) used Glauert corrections for his study and pointed out:

"The calculated values of the pitching-moment coefficient at zero lift , the aerodynamic center position, the angle of the zero lift , and the lift-curve slope are generally in good agreement with the tests values (table VI). The agreement of the pitching moment coefficient at zero lift and the aerodynamic-center position, which are calculated from the basic and additional lift distributions, respectively, indicate that the theoretical lift distributions must also agree reasonably well with the actual distributions "

This is also confimed by Abbott and von Doenhoff (1949) "Theory of Wing Sections" and actually even Badboy above offers to post some kind "very nice chart" on Glauert corrections (thanks but I've got a copy of Glauert's book allready). Glauert corrections are still fundamental and well accepted  part of the wing theory.

Shortly Wood's book is many ways out dated, as an example  he wrotes about wind tunnel testing with scaled down models:

".. but in general the smaller the tunnel the larger the corrections for scale and turbulence which must be made to have results applicable to full-size airplanes.Such corrections are uncertain in the present state of art and introduce large errors into the results."

Just about ten years later Pope  (1947, "Wind tunnel testing") pointed out that lift curve slope can be well estimated with the models regardless the size of the model becauce the slope of the lift curve remains about same regardless the Reynold's number. In addition Pope's book contain a nice listing of wind tunnels around the world including Germany; there was no large wind tunnel in Germany during WWII. BTW Pope's books are still available, I think latest was published in nineties.

Regarding the subject of this thread, it has been pointed out that the  Wood's formula for rectangular wings as well the NADC formula can't be directly used as generalized formulas and  there is no way to estimate e factor of the wing or entire airframe accurately from the aspect ratio only.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

The new formula changes the numbers but not the results.  Do the math and you will see.


There is no washout included in the formula so it won't give accurate results for the planes with washout. Besides, there should be a viscous part of drag included for elliptical wing (or wing with optimal taper ratio, 0,52 or what ever). This means that the e factor won't be 1 even in the optimal case due to viscous part of the drag rise (see Wood figure 32).

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #343 on: January 03, 2005, 11:59:03 PM »
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Just about ten years later Pope (1947, "Wind tunnel testing") pointed out that lift curve slope can be well estimated with the models regardless the size of the model becauce the slope of the lift curve remains about same regardless the Reynold's number. In addition Pope's book contain a nice listing of wind tunnels around the world including Germany; there was no large wind tunnel in Germany during WWII. BTW Pope's books are still available, I think latest was published in nineties.


And we are back to square one.  

Your saying Badboy is full of crap?  Wooden models CAN be used for accurately determining the e factor when compared with actual aircraft?

Not for drag estimation, Gripen.  Call HTC and ask Hitech.

BTW the Drag polars for the FW-190 where done at a large wind tunnel in FRANCE. As has been said many times in this thread.  Since I have the entire report and it includes pictures....

It's hard to claim it was a wooden model Gripen.

 
Quote
Regarding the subject of this thread, it has been pointed out that the Wood's formula for rectangular wings as well the NADC formula can't be directly used as generalized formulas and there is no way to estimate e factor of the wing or entire airframe accurately from the aspect ratio only.


What reality do you live in?  Have you read anything Badboy or anyone else has posted?

" Glauert gives corrections for tapered wings as a function of the amount of taper, but this refinement is believed to be not justified in practice."

This has got to be an English as a second language mistake.  Surely you are smarter than that or you are just trolling.  Please break out a dictionary and look up the meaning of the words in this statement.  It is obvious you do not understand them.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 12:05:15 AM by Crumpp »

Offline gripen

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« Reply #344 on: January 04, 2005, 03:06:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Your saying Badboy is full of crap?  Wooden models CAN be used for accurately determining the e factor when compared with actual aircraft?


I have not said nothing about content of the Badboy despite he has posted to this thread with double identities (Dweep being extremely aggressive) and the formula he claimed to generic was actually not. Anyway, unlike you, Badboy is capable to discuss about the subject rational way and able to admit his errors. Basicly you have posted over 100 times to this thread without a single relevant post so far.

What I say above is that the Wood's opinions about the corrections were outdated soon after his book came out. Actually one major breaktrough happened just in same year (NACA 547) that's actually one of the Pope's sources.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Not for drag estimation, Gripen.  Call HTC and ask Hitech.


We are not talking about the total drag here but the drag rise due to change of the lift coefficient (induced and viscous). And this can be estimated from the models with good accuracy given the corrections are right. A wooden model might be cleaner than a real plane but the lift characters as well as viscous drag change due to increasing AoA are about same regardless the size of the model.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

BTW the Drag polars for the FW-190 where done at a large wind tunnel in FRANCE.


I've got a report as well as pictures too. The point was that the Fw data in the drag chart posted above for Ta 152 is certainly based on model testing and probably the values for the Fw 190 too because the chart contains detailed data for parts of the airframe as well as claims for interference drag which is a clear indication of model testing.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Have you read anything Badboy or anyone else has posted?


I have read his postings as well as checked his as well as your sources.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
" Glauert gives corrections for tapered wings as a function of the amount of taper, but this refinement is believed to be not justified in practice."

This has got to be an English as a second language mistake.  Surely you are smarter than that or you are just trolling.  Please break out a dictionary and look up the meaning of the words in this statement.  It is obvious you do not understand them.


Just read Anderson as well as Perkins&Hage as well as Abbott&vonDoenhoff... They all use Glauert corrections. Even Wood used Glauert correction for rectangular wing, Wood's book is simply outdated and actually he uses words "believed to be not justified". Besides even Badboy claims above "Glauert also published a very nice graph".

You are the one who is trolling here.

gripen