Author Topic: AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster  (Read 1665 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2004, 10:50:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Grunherz,

I am not a big P-47 fan but the thing about that bird is that if you start pulling things off of it like fuel and guns the wingloading goes way down.  

14,500lbs fully loaded with 8 guns and full fuel gives it wing loading of 48.3.

370 gallons of fuel!! Weighting 2,200lbs! At 25% fuel (555lbs) the P-47 now weights 12,850lbs.

Now get rid of 2 .50 cal guns. 145lbs total and the reduced ammo load which acounts for another 166lbs at least.

And viola

12,539lbs with wing loading of 41.79 with plenty of ammo and significnant duration with almost 100 gallons of fuel on board.

Superbolt.


Thats still higher than even a Bf109G10 IIRC, let alone a G6 or G2..

Offline F4UDOA

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2004, 11:56:07 AM »
Karnak,

I don't fly the P-47 very much if at all but I would be surprised if 100 gallons only last 7 or 8 minutes. Not to say that it doesn't.

Grunherz,

Again not my favorite ride. I'm just expaining how the wingloading can be brought down to well within a "reasonable" range.

Also the flaps on the Bolt could be used up until 200+ MPH. So by the time E has bled down the flaps are more than likely out.

The other factor that really helps the bolt is the increase in climb and accleration with weight loss.

I can only base this on the F4U (Because I have a chart that shows it) but with weight loss of 1,000lbs is an decrease in climb by 1 minute to 20,000FT at mil power. So instead of 8 minutes at 12,000lbs it gets there at 7 minutes at 11,000lbs. An increase from an average climb rate of 2500FPM to 2857FPM.

357FPM is a significant increase in climb. The Bolt cuts over 2,000lbs when trimming weight. This gives it an enormous boost in climb and acceleration to go with the lower wing loading.

Check the climb times done by WW.

BTW I have no idea if this was the case with the P-47 as I only have that chart for the F4U-1D for comparison.

Offline Karnak

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2004, 12:05:07 PM »
F4UDOA,

I can't remember if it was a P-47D-11 or a D-25, but the first time I flew a P-47 in AH2 I took 50% fuel because I thought it would be plenty to attack the next base over.  That gave me about 15 minutes of fuel at MIL power.  Ever since then I take 100% fuel and maybe drop tanks with the P-47.  I treat it just like a Spitfire in regards to fuel.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2004, 01:04:12 PM »
I know F4UDOA, I was just adding that it's still higer than Bf109 loading.

Offline DoctorYO

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2004, 01:15:11 PM »
Do not listen to widewing..  his information is incorrect about the f4u4 move along..

:rolleyes:

(Down)




















Now that the cat is out of the bag..  yeah i have to agree Everything Widewing said is true..  Tempest and Typhoons used to be the bane of f4u4 do to their ability to bleed e (out radii) then regain  it..  now the f4u4's acceleration got a boost.. along with stability near the stall.. it matches up very well..

This aircraft was a bear duirng AH1 and now its improved.. just watch it lift off a deck with 2 1000lbs no problem says it all.. Freaking carrier supermustang is what it is..


Props to Widewing and Bighorn for the tests.....


DoctorYo

Offline Soda

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2004, 02:05:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
F4UDOA,

I can't remember if it was a P-47D-11 or a D-25, but the first time I flew a P-47 in AH2 I took 50% fuel because I thought it would be plenty to attack the next base over.  That gave me about 15 minutes of fuel at MIL power.  Ever since then I take 100% fuel and maybe drop tanks with the P-47.  I treat it just like a Spitfire in regards to fuel.


I think more people are running into "light" P47's now.  Even only 25% can be stretched out to 15min so that's not too bad.  The change in fuel-porkage also means droptanks are almost always available, hence people load them up and transit/climb/position with those and then switch to internal fuel.  I know I've limped a lot of low-gas P47's home with only a couple of gallons to spare.. the guys I'd fought had been dealing with me at 1/3 internal or less.

The difference in stats is dramatic too between the weights possible in the P47's.  I had some AH2 numbers I was testing, I don't have it right infront of me right now, but I remember it being pretty significant (very measurable) in acceleration/climb and in general the handling just seemed a lot better.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2004, 05:01:44 PM »
That 50% + DT nonsense has to stop...

Offline Karnak

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2004, 05:18:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
That 50% + DT nonsense has to stop...

I agree.

DTs (or multiple DT options as on the P-47D-40) need to be handled in a linear fashion along with fuel percentages.

P-47D-40 should go like:

25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + Center DT --> 100% + Wing DTs --> 100% + Wing DTs + Center DT

The Ki-84-I-Ko would look like this (if the one DT and one bomb option were allowed):
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + Left Wing DT --> 100% + Wing DTs

The Fw190A-5 would look like:
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + DT

The Mosquito Mk VI would look like:
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + DTs
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Offline Karnak

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2004, 05:29:27 PM »
I just noticed on this screen shot that the Ki-84 seems to have the same kind of flaps as the P-51, that move back and then down.

Is that correct and does that bode well for the Ki-84's manuverability?
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Offline GScholz

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2004, 06:24:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I agree.

DTs (or multiple DT options as on the P-47D-40) need to be handled in a linear fashion along with fuel percentages.

P-47D-40 should go like:

25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + Center DT --> 100% + Wing DTs --> 100% + Wing DTs + Center DT

The Ki-84-I-Ko would look like this (if the one DT and one bomb option were allowed):
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + Left Wing DT --> 100% + Wing DTs

The Fw190A-5 would look like:
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + DT

The Mosquito Mk VI would look like:
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + DTs


I agree.
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Offline Widewing

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2004, 07:49:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I agree.

DTs (or multiple DT options as on the P-47D-40) need to be handled in a linear fashion along with fuel percentages.

P-47D-40 should go like:

25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + Center DT --> 100% + Wing DTs --> 100% + Wing DTs + Center DT

The Ki-84-I-Ko would look like this (if the one DT and one bomb option were allowed):
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + Left Wing DT --> 100% + Wing DTs

The Fw190A-5 would look like:
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + DT

The Mosquito Mk VI would look like:
25% --> 50% --> 75% --> 100% --> 100% + DTs



Wow, you guys need a history lesson. STANDARD procedure within the 9th AF was NOT to take anymore internal fuel than you needed to fly to the target and return (+10 minutes for combat). Talk to some 9th AF vets and you find them flying with only the main tank fueled and the aux left empty MOST of the time. Even then, they would only add as much fuel as was required. Granted, some units didn't like to fly on less than full tanks, but that was local policy. The use of a disposable belly tank just to get them to the target area (where it was dumped) was not unusual. Remember, Crew Chiefs were making all sorts of unauthorized mods to fighters to give their pilot every advantage possible. Common sense (an oxymoron if ever there existed one) indicates that by limiting the fuel to what was needed to complete the mission, performance would be enhanced.

Many 9th AF units were based within 20 miles of the front. By mid 1944, the 9th was the largest user of P-47s in the ETO. Our field spacing is not out of line with the range required to reach the combat area in the ETO (post invasion).

If you manage your fuel, you can stay airborne a long time on 50% internal, which is how I usually configure my P-47s. I usually take a single belly tank and a full load of rockets and two 1k bombs. This is for offensive missions within a range of 1 to 1.5 sectors. Moreover, I rarely take the Jug above 10k anyway. For defensive work (fighting off GV hordes), I'll take 25% and substitute a 500 pounder for the belly tank. Since I'll rarely be using max power, I can hang out for 15-20 minutes on this, but rarely need to. I drop my ordnance and immediately go and rearm (strafing is of little value, and the time wasted could be used to rearm). For defensive work against incoming fighters, I will take a P-38 with 50% gas instead.

Gentlemen, you can do the same thing with any aircraft that has external fuel capability. I don't understand the whining about taking less than full internal fuel and adding a drop tank. The pilot has the option to configure his aircraft anyway possible within the alotted options. If you feel taking less than full tanks is an issue, than take full tanks on your planes. But, please stop playing hall monitor with how others prefer to fly. If you're afraid of a lightweight P-47 or P-38, well you should be. Especially if you're horsing around a wallowing whale with unnecessary gas aboard. Perhaps it bothers you that a light P-38 or P-47 can fight just about anything on even terms. Too bad, life sometimes sux.

There's only a few aircraft in the game that can take full underwing ordnance AND a belly tank. These include the P-47D-25 and D-40, as well as the F6F-5. This is a perfectly normal load-out. To eliminate that option WOULD be unrealistic.

By the way, I tested the P-47D-40 for acceleration at sea level. at 100 feet at 200 mph, it accelerated to 300 mph in 38 seconds. That's nearly 5 seconds slower than the P-38L. However, it's 12 seconds faster than the Spitfire Mk.IX under the same parameters. Of course, there is a direct correlation between max deck speed and acceleration on the deck if the upper test limit is close to its maximum deck speed.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2004, 07:59:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I just noticed on this screen shot that the Ki-84 seems to have the same kind of flaps as the P-51, that move back and then down.

Is that correct and does that bode well for the Ki-84's manuverability?


Those appear to be Fowler type flaps, completely different from that of the P-51, which has plain flaps. There are four main types of flaps, Plain, Split, Slotted and Fowler.

P-38 has Fowler type
P-47 has Slotted type
P-51 has Plain type
P-40 has Split type

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline MiloMorai

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2004, 08:10:58 PM »
Karnak

I don't think the P-51 had Fowler flaps as on the Ki-84.


Offline GRUNHERZ

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2004, 10:41:17 PM »
KI84 also had another flap setting that slid them straight back to increase wing area for manouver..

Offline Karnak

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AH2 F4U-4 is a real monster
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2004, 10:39:25 AM »
Oops on the flap thing.  I thought I'd read up above that the P-51's flaps moved back and then down.

Widewing,

Hmmm.  I'd read that drop tanks were supposed to be retained if possible.  That was pertaining to the RAF though.  I guess the USAAF had a larger supply of drop tanks.
Petals floating by,
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             As she remembers me-