Thoughts on KOTH from the peanut gallery [ nut house ]

[fuzeman]

Apologies if this sounds like a whine, it isn't.
   I've been flying KOTHs since STICK started them back in another flight sim. They are the most intense and fun events you can be in, in my opinion. Lately thought, it seems they are changing a little and it's not for the bettter, again imo. These events are a true test of Situational Awareness and test both your offensive and defensive tactics. You should be able to fight offensively and get into a position to shoot down your opponent but you should also be able to defensively maneuver to avoid his tactics and reverse the situation.
   In September's EuroKoTH the times my first encounter ended up in a fight were outnumbered by the times a guy made one gun pass, and kept screaming away to the next bunch of dots ahead of him, no matter how far away they were. I can see 'extending' if the plane types are different but we are all flying the same aircraft. One match this happened three times before someone actually engaged me and we had a fight. This is a pure dogfighting event after all, is it not?
   Another thing is the way two match winners want 'fair' fights when they are wearing that BIG Bullseye. The only time I ever wore that badge of honor, maybe a stroke of luck in my case, I fully expected anyone and everyone to hunt me down like a rabid dog and make me the first kill of the match. This is after all King Of The Hill. Just like the game we played as kids that top of the hill was a convergence zone. Any and all tried to go to that spot to dethrone the the present 'King'. Now we aren't supposed to do that. The way I've flown KOTHs is to go after the most dangerous target. Going into every match my goal, however hopeless, is to win the thing. Anyone with a BIG Bullseye is the most dangerous to me at that time. Once he's been dispatched then I will fight anyone in the vicinity to thin the ranks. If there is a BIG Bullseye ahead with a target or two inbetween us, I see nothing wrong in not engaging them to get to that BIG Bullseye. When two or more of those BIG Bullseyes are flying is when it really gets interesting. This is also supposed to be test of survival and you have to survive wearing that BIG Bullseye, no matter how long it takes. These can be marathon events at times and that is also part of winning it.
   I hope you don't see this as a 'I have not won it yet' gripe; nothing could be farther from the truth. Understand that no matter how long it takes, if it ever happens at all, I will continue to attend and generally be a target. OK, I'm done. Go ahead and let me know your opinions or dump a load of crap on my head for mine.

[TequilaChaser]

You about covered it all fuzeman,  you might have left out the thought of  some flyers may fly to evade any action if they have  won a round or 2 rounds, until the round has thinned down to where almost only round winners are still up with a few exceptions.......this has been near evident in all KOTHs for last 4 or 5 months, I know I have not attended every single KOTH, but this is a frequently seen situation.....

it was either BigMax or Gremlin that imposed a penalty something like if you ran for an extended period with out engaging you would be disqualified. I like that......

As far as you suggesting by pass 2 targets to get to the 1 target with a BULLSEYE, one would hope or wish that the guys/gals flying that are near winning the event would be hunted and dispatched first, to allow others that had not won around yet to fight it out amongst themselves.....I myself think you should engage  any counter you come incontact with  say with in 3 or 4k of each other if both are un opposed by another opponent,  being this is KOTH though, I do not care much for the ones that  come in and cherry pick you or the other guy while ya'll are mixing it up,  to me that doesn't show much skill nor does it show how good one person is,  but like you I have my opinion and I am sure everyone has a different flavor of opinion.

also I have never won not even 1 Koth round, and I merely fly for the fun of it, not to claim any title......( have been 2nd or 3rd in a good few rounds though )

[fuzeman]

We do currently have a 'one minute extension' rule which works for the most part. That usually comes into play a little farther into the matches. Example: one guy with a healthy plane and one with a smoking engine; you can't just keep running and pray he doesn't have Z-Max forever lube in his oil. I guess this could be effective from the 'KS off, lets get ready to rumble' call.
Cherry picking part of the SA test in my opinion, have to do that Messerschmidt twist and keep everything in mind. Then again, if we all headed to fights soon after we finish one you can't really grab too much. Another twist on this tactic is if possible, I switch to fight 'intruders' and kind of let the original guy I was fighting go. Hopefully he'll bounce the 'intruder' also but you can't count on that.
I best shaddup or we'll be flying FOTD, Fuzeman Of The Day, and nobody will atttend this fine event.

[flyingaround]

Sept. E.KOTH was fairly typical.  I didn't see much avoiding, or much running, well...maybe a couple times.   Always been my policy that if your in icon range, we gonna fight.  I wouldn't think anyone could accuse me of extended running, I like ftn 2 much.

Having won a koth, I no longer fly to win, but more to keep it going.  I  DO target 2 timers first (if I can) and if a 2 timer and someone else are ftn, and I blaze into the fight, for DARN sure the 2 timer gonna get shot at first.  It's to be expected.  

Heck, one KOTH I had two wins in the first three rounds (ALMOST three) and was mercilessly hunted for the next 12-14 rounds.  EVERYONE jumped me.  It did get frustrating, BUT again, that's what is to be expected, and in hindsight I think fondly of it.  It was "pile one lute" for 3 solid hours.  

MANY pilots fly to avoid the initial "furballs", and THAT is also to be expected.  I also try to position myself so I can "pick" my 1st fight, BUT again, you show up in icon range, we gonna fight, and as soon as FIGHT ON is called, I immedialty point my nose to a fight.  

My only real criticism would be that the host of the KOTH generally fly's also.  That makes it hard to enforce some of the rules.  If needs be, I would be happy to fly every other round w/ whoever is flying and help enforce the rules a bit.

All in all, Sept EKOTH was some great fighting, and a big <> to everyone who flew.

[MRPLUTO]

I'm probably one of the people fuze is thinking of...sometimes in yesterday's KOTH I did make single passes and then continue on to a nearby dogfight.  But sometimes I didn't.

This was my thinking:  If, after the merge with an aircraft, I felt I had an advantage, I turned and fought.  If not, I continued, hoping to mix things up with the other planes and confuse the situation so that maybe I could attain an advantage.  This is a basic chess strategy: when you are behind, complicate the situation; when you're ahead, simplify.

I wish there had been more targets, errr pilots, at KOTH.  I think that's one reason for some of the flying seen yesterday...the action is a lot different with 10 as opposed to 20+.

MRPLUTO

P.S.  For the record, I don't stalk pilots with two wins.  My actions are based on the tactical situation only, not the overall "strategic" aspect of who wins.

[Gremlin]

All good stuff guys thanks for the input.  Its great to see you guys care about the event so much.  Lemme tell you what we exoect in general terms and then I'll give you my thoughts on what I see.

During the fight every player should be in a fight or headed to the nearest fight.  There is a very thin line between maintaing good SA/maximising an advantage and avoiding fighting.  Sometimes its very hard to decide whether a guy is setting up or is just avoiding the fight.  There are one or two who I wont name who sail very close to the wind.  What I see is, for example, two guys duking on the deck and a third guy making *very* lame efforts at making passes.  Most times the third guy dives goes nowhere near them and then zooms away.  I do not consider that fighting.  All they wanna do is wait until one or both are dead and just make the lame passes to keep me off their back.  The other thing I saw and commented on last night was a guy who spent a good 5 minutes in a climbing contest with another.  Thats not on either if you have an alt advantage use it or lose it.

As far as ganging the guy with 2 wins.  Thats fine to a point but you should remember that winging is not allowed and guys working together to down the bullseye is winging no matter which way you look at it.  I admit I often sit there hoping the two timer gets nailed so that we can go again the same as anyone.  My own attitude is that that I shoot/engage whatever guy offers the best chance of killing him without getting killed myself.  My general tactic is to start at the top and work down, of course it rarely works but hey:)  Remember if you set out and chase the two timer down to the deck you might get him but your as good as dead too when the others come piling in on you.

Lute you are right the hosting CM should not fly as a rule.  However it is sometimes necessary particularly in the early stages of E-KOTH.  Last night there were three players at the start of the event so if I dont fly then there is just 3 players in round one.  Next month I will try to fly the cm eye instead of a plane.  ANyway its durn near impossible to give any kind of an account of oneself in the heat of the arena when your typing and doing the arena setup stuff.

From next month heres how I plan to do it.  I will not be flying soI will be cruising the arena watching everyone and I will be passing judgment on people.  If I see something I dont like I will warn the player, I will set the eject time for one second or the shortest time I can,  I will count to ten slowly, if the player hasnt co-operated I will eject.  After one minute the player comes back in and flys next round.  It would be nice if we had a .kill but we dont.  This is different to a player being ejected for unacceptable behaviour in which case that player will not be let back in the event.  I see this as a "Sin Bin".  SO players needent get too offended if you fall foul of it.

Heres roughly what I will consider not playing fair.

1.  Plain avoiding fighting.
2.  Making lame passes in an attempt to avoid fighting.  Its ok to make a couple of dummy passes to get you into the right position to press your final attack.  Just as long as that attack comes.  I'm thinking that three dummy passes is your limit.  If you cant set up properly after that then you blew it.
3.  Tracking someone before the fight is called.
4.  Spending too much time grabbing when there are coalt fights to be had.
5.  *CONTINUALLY* making single passes on players but never actually engaging anyone.  Its ok once or twice but if it goes on you get sin binned.
6.  Not reading the MOTD. I tell all players to read it, and I dont think its unreasonable that you cant fly if you dont know the rules.
7.  Complaining about HO's.  HOs are perfectly acceptable, remember the rules 'Once the fight is called, ANYTHING GOES'

All of the above and perhaps some more will get you sin binned with a warning first so that you can avoid that particular sin bin event.

Infringing the main rules, e.g alt cap going outside the circle etc will get you sin binned without warning.  You will see this.
"Player XXX you are sinbinned you may re-enter the arena and fly in the next round" and then I eject them.  They come straight back in and fly next round as normal.


I will put all of this on the MOTD and explain this at regular stages of the event (God i wish we could cut and paste to the text buffer)

In order for all of this to work it has to be on the understanding that the hosts decision is final,  WHat we cant have is a player arguing the toss.  Its one thing making a point but if a player continues to argue the toss then they get sin binned for the next round too and if it continues after that they disqualify themselves from the rest of the event.

Be assured I know the difference between flying smart and not playing fair.

PLUTO:  You played the game the way it should be played, your quite right to make a single pass as long as you continue to the nearest fight.  At all times thats what I saw you do and by all means continue to do it.  Thats smart flying

So what do you guys think??  Will it work?  Once again guys, thanks for the feedback its greatly appreciated.

[fuzeman]

I wouldn't have said a peep, and regret doing so if this makes the CMs not fly. You have everyright TO fly and participate. The KOTHers should police themselves on this and this is definately an event where you should honor the rules yourself. We did have an early AH2 KOTH where many guys did the 'oops I went over 8k, I'm bailing.' That's how we all should do it. Much has been said of 'honor' in flight sims but in KOTH I really think it has a place, except when your fighting. Then leave the honor go and fight like rabid dogs.
I have a short memory on purpose and didn't want to name anyone, and honestly I can't remember any specifics on who started me thinking this. I know we had an early BIG Bullseye but I've been thinking of this for awhile so I'm not finger pointing at anyone for anything.
I also don't want it to turn into a 'hey, so-and-so is doing this or that' and turn into a whine fest.
Each player should be true to the rules on his own accord. Maybe an e-mail after to any offenders would be sufficient with a warning that what was done previously was skirting the rules. If an e-mail address isn't available a short talk before the next months KOTH might work. I'm sure as soon as one guy gets a wakeup call, he'll be looking for another skirter to give him company.

I'll volunteer to be the honorary 1st dog-pile-on-me-r for tonight so everyone has a target to start out with.

[TequilaChaser]

Good rules layout/addition Gremlin,

and I will check up on the MOTD to see what has changed, I read it yesterday when you asked me, but it was the same as all the other KOTHs I had participated in.....


We all appreciate your input Grem  

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I read it yesterday when you asked me, but it was the same as all the other KOTHs I had participated in.....


We all appreciate your input Grem  

Ha!  Gotcha!  See ithe MOTD wasnt the same cause I edited it just before the event:)  I'll add the new stuff above to it before nextmonths event.

 right back atcha TC

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Gremlin
Ha!  Gotcha!  See ithe MOTD wasnt the same cause I edited it just before the event:)  I'll add the new stuff above to it before nextmonths event.

 right back atcha TC

I don't doubt it one bit Grem, I scanned it ( fast read ) so quick to get up and flying since I showed up so late, I just assume it was near the same, and I didn't notice what you had changed.....I only flew 2 flights and figured I was not on par with everyone else coming in at the end starting cold so I logged.......

I be sure to read it each and everytime from now own though since you caught me off guard

[BigMax]

Lotsa good discussions...  Read this last week, ran from Hurricane Ivan, just getting back to it...

Reading all the running versus extending stuff really makes me go hmmmmmmm.

I think a lot of players interpret discreet engagement tactics as running, in some instances.

Insight as to how I fly in KoTHs as a player, for what it's worth:

• Take the least fuel you can safely fly with & a DT.
• On roll-out, I look for a safe vector and maintain good spacing.
• As fight is called, I very selectively look for my first fight - usually I look for 1 to 3 planes AWAY from other fights, vice a big furball. My reasoning, BIG furballs discount pilot skill, SA is impossible with 8 planes zooming around your head, the AWAY part is crucial since I want to fight without being jumped by E advantaged A/C  **Remember** I set my surroundings at climb out and rarely find myself in "the soup".
  
• As the fight wears on, I prioritize targets top-to-bottom (altitude) and then by my estimation of pilot skill-level - sometimes reversed. I decide quickly which is MY target and I get there ASAP>
• I frequently use other enemies in the area as blockers and or will sometimes set up my attackers for other planes in the area. I really don't care how an enemy dies, just that he does
  
• I always use the terrain to increase my advanatge and make my foe more predicactable, where possible.
• If I score a Radiator or Oil hit, I count that pilot as dead and disengage because that plane is critcally damaged and no longer a serious threat

Ultimately, I think what is often missed by some players is that KoTH is NOT necessarily a "Me vs. You" fight.  Often, it's a "Me vs. Everybody within 5 miles" fight...  Because I choose not to engage you specifically doesn't mean that I am not engaged, it simply means that I have assessed the situation and you are NOT the greatest threat, or you are NOT the easiest target.

I agree with what was said above, KoTH is about SA (really good SA goes beyond icon range) and judicious use your planes' strengths.  The wiliest and craftiest pilot will win, which is how it should be IMO.
_____________________________ ___________________
  From A CM/host's perspective:
I choose not to fly most rounds because some players will manipulate the rules and try to twist and bend them to justify something they did...  I want to provide every player with a level playing field, and I am more effective doing it in CM-eye mode.  If things are going smoothly, I will try to fly a round or two later in the event.

2-timers:
Been there, done that (giving and receiving).  My opinion is that they are simply the highest priority target...  One facet of trying to win a KoTH, is that sometimes you have to make sure someone else doesn't win it first.  2 timers should embrace the challenge.  Everyone is gunning for you, so take the battle to the enemy, laugh in the face of danger, and make sure you get two or three of'em before they get yas

I would never try to dictate anther player's style - fly how it suits you.  But Me/Gremlin will be watching and we will ask you to find a fight if you are a continual runner.  Most pilots in the event want to fight, so it's rarely an issue...