whats the best P47?

[bozon]

Originally posted by pellik
Flaps  start comming out at 400mph on the jugs!

flaps are useless at 400 mph. They only allow you to dump just a tad more E which the Jug does very good anyway (even when you don't want to ...).

Flaps begin to be significat when you reach speeds low enough so you can't pull max G. 250 mph is planty. being able to pull 1st notch out at 400 mph is just more convenient.

having a few hours in the F4U-1 in AHII, in the earlier tours, I can say that the jug is more stable when slow but the F4u turns alot better. In a circle fight, the jug is dead. various scissors - good matchup.

Bozon

[crutch]

Uhh, hate to rain on the Jug parade with a reality check, but my P47D pilot manual has the flaps restricted at 190 and gear at 200 IAS.

Turns were prohibited for speeds under 130 IAS.

No P47 had 'combat' flaps.  D-30, -35, -40, M and Ns had dive recovery flaps to get out of compression dives.

Using flaps in combat was EXTREAMLY rare and if you fly the Jug right you dont need them.

[YUCCA]

whichever one im flying

[pellik]

I took the D11 jug up for a night of unbridled slaughter just a little bit ago. I can say that it's performance in AH2 is at least as good as it was in AH1. For pilots looking to unlock the mysterys of the jug I want to get a few tips out.

The 400mph combat flaps are your pirmary weapon. Don't listen to realism dweebs who tell you that the 47 isn't supposed to fly like that. The MA isn't much like the real war. There are three situations where popping flaps at speed will make this thing one of the deadliest fighters in the game. In an offensive situation where you're attacking a low con the flaps allow you to turn better then anyone will assume is possible. This means that when a spitfire does a slowly tightening turn, you slowly increase your turn rate to get the shot. I typically don't pop the flaps until I'm about d800 and closing fast. Many good pilots won't be very able to get off effective overshoot maneuvers with that flap out. Offensively this thing is just a killer, but good gunnery is required.

In a co-e fight the 400mph flaps can give you a good, but fleeting, edge. If you and a spit are both barrelling in at 350mph getting ready to start a turnfight after diving to get and/or avoid vertical seperation the 47 pops flaps on the top half of his immel. He is around so much faster then the spit that he gets a cannopy shot on the pass. This also means that once behind a con he isn't going to get away. There is no turn he can do to get a high aot if you pop combat flaps when he yanks hard. No AOT and he can't scissors. The fight is just over.

In a defensive situation these high speed flaps allow the 47 to pull off overshoot maneuvers normally reserved for spit and zeke pilots. I'll assume you've seen wldthings reversal film in which he demonstrates that his spitV starts reversals from d800. You can do that in a 47 barrelling along at 300mph with a 400mph pony or 262 on your 6. Hit flaps and do the reversal at d800 and you'll be saddled up taking your shot before your opponent has cleared 200 feet. It's a great 262 killer.


I state again, however, that the strengths of this plane require a very experienced stick. It can be a real beast, but the jug pilot needs to be able to see and predict his enemys cone of fire at all times. This plane wont win fights by making big looping turns to avoid a weapons solution, but has to rely on getting its opponents in close and making jinking maneuvers to reverse.

As an added "jug tip" bonus, let me just recommend the low alt flat scissors (mostly flat, not so flat that they get a snapshot each pass) as a great last ditch defensive maneuver. I picked up four kills in a flight tonight while being attacked by something like 6 rooks on the deck just by going so slow they stalled trying to follow me. The better pilots backed off and waited for me to make a mistake, but four damn people augered before I did!

-pellik

[pellik]

Originally posted by YUCCA
whichever one im flying

Then you must be flying the d11.

-pellik

[pellik]

Originally posted by bozon
flaps are useless at 400 mph. They only allow you to dump just a tad more E which the Jug does very good anyway (even when you don't want to ...).

Flaps begin to be significat when you reach speeds low enough so you can't pull max G. 250 mph is planty. being able to pull 1st notch out at 400 mph is just more convenient.

having a few hours in the F4U-1 in AHII, in the earlier tours, I can say that the jug is more stable when slow but the F4u turns alot better. In a circle fight, the jug is dead. various scissors - good matchup.

Bozon

Assuming this is an even fight the P47 will win the merge by a long shot thanks to the high speed flaps deployment. The f4u1 can either break into energy games, which arn't so hot against a jug, or commit to a turn fight with a co-E jug on his 6. Even if you pull through full blackout on the merge with a throttle chop the 47 will still get around faster. The f4u1 may be able to hold its own against the 47 in a stall fight if both planes start slow.

The other disadvantage the f4u1 will have in a scissors fight is vulnerability to snapshots. The 47 is a very tough plane in AH2. The only weakness it has is engine oil, which is not a quick way to kill someone. It has no radiator, so radiator hits just wont happen. The canopy is pretty tough to crack. I've seen small callibur rounds hit the canopy and not break the window. It just puts a little crack in the glass with no bullet hole.  So if the f4u passes behind the p47 3 out of 4 times, the 47 will probably win the fight.

-pellik

[bozon]

Originally posted by pellik
Assuming this is an even fight the P47 will win the merge by a long shot thanks to the high speed flaps deployment. The f4u1 can either break into energy games, which arn't so hot against a jug, or commit to a turn fight with a co-E jug on his 6.

if the jug is on his 6, it's not really a 'merge'. more like a bounce and in that case almost any plane is hard to shake.

The F4u is very simmilar in preformance to the jug and share many tricks. The jug climb better (on wep) and the Hog holds E better - close match again. In the turning department the hog will easily out-turn the jug once below 250 mph. pulling out the flaps at 400 mph is of little use since you'll be in the blackout anyway. by chopping throttle and using rudder you'll get a much better effect of breaking than with the flaps. when they get important near 200 mph, the hog can pull them out too.
The hog can also use the gear trick for breaking as of 300 mph.

The hog has the same radial engine and is almost as durable.

under 10k almost all advantages go to the f4u. What gets people killed is that they think the jug is a helpless heavy plane and attack carelessly.

Bozon

[pellik]

Originally posted by bozon
if the jug is on his 6, it's not really a 'merge'. more like a bounce and in that case almost any plane is hard to shake.

The F4u is very simmilar in preformance to the jug and share many tricks. The jug climb better (on wep) and the Hog holds E better - close match again. In the turning department the hog will easily out-turn the jug once below 250 mph. pulling out the flaps at 400 mph is of little use since you'll be in the blackout anyway. by chopping throttle and using rudder you'll get a much better effect of breaking than with the flaps. when they get important near 200 mph, the hog can pull them out too.
The hog can also use the gear trick for breaking as of 300 mph.

The hog has the same radial engine and is almost as durable.

under 10k almost all advantages go to the f4u. What gets people killed is that they think the jug is a helpless heavy plane and attack carelessly.

Bozon

The reason I said the 'jug is on his 6' is that the combat flaps give the jug a rediculously good initial merge compared to the f4u. Not only do combat flaps help you dump E to have a  low radius immel on the merge, but they dramatically increase turn rate. The P47 can kill spitVs in co-e fights a lot of times because it gets so much position on the first merge.

The f4u can drop landing gear. Big deal. Combat flaps allow you to exchange energy for turn at an incredible rate while at high speed. Gear just acts as an anchor. Performance is roughly equal after the merge, but if the 47 has already won the fight it won't matter much.

-pellik

[Flyboy]

Originally posted by Urchin
Easily the D-25.. the paintjob is wicked cool.

i have to agree with urchin on this one!


hi crutch, how ya doin over there? did they finaly gave the jug the paunch he had?

[bozon]

Originally posted by pellik
The reason I said the 'jug is on his 6' is that the combat flaps give the jug a rediculously good initial merge compared to the f4u. Not only do combat flaps help you dump E to have a low radius immel on the merge, but they dramatically increase turn rate. The P47 can kill spitVs in co-e fights a lot of times because it gets so much position on the first merge.

If they start at 350 mph the jug will turn a smaller first half circle with or without the flaps, but at the same rate. It will not get you on anybody's 6 since if the turn rate is the same you are not gainning any angles.

If you are talking about HO merge and a "one circle" fight, the jug will be inside the spit's circle and get a snapshot. starting at 350mph this is true without the flaps - their E dumping effect at the first notch is negligible.

a Jug trying this stunt better finish off its target on the one snapshot it gets or it finds itself much slower than the spit and at an angle disadvantage. Luckily, the greater part of the spit pilots are newbies.

The Jug's flaps are perhaps a little too effective when slow, allowing a really slow flying, not when fast. The manuver setting will help you in the 200-250mph range (where you can't pull into the blackout) to keep up with turning targets using nose low turns.

Bozon

[pellik]

Originally posted by bozon
If they start at 350 mph the jug will turn a smaller first half circle with or without the flaps, but at the same rate. It will not get you on anybody's 6 since if the turn rate is the same you are not gainning any angles.
 

Not true. Let's think about this logically. What affects turn rate when going fast? G forces. The amount of force exerted on a plane and it's pilot is directly related to the  velocity of the plane and the rate at which it's turning. The reason a 300mph plane can't turn on a dime is that turning 90 degrees is roughly the equivilant of coming to a complete stop on a single vector. If the plane or pilot couldn't survive the rate of change of the velocity along that vector the plane or pilot won't survive the turn. Thus the rate of turn is directly proportional to the speed at which the aircraft is travelling. This is true as long as the lift the aircraft provides is sufficient to black out the pilot, after which lift becomes the limiting factor.

When a jug pilot pops a notch of flaps going in to his merge he dramatically increases drag while increasing the lift of his plane. This means that not only will his turn be tighter as the plane slows down, but his turn becomes faster. The real kicker is that the increase of the rate of turn happens primarily while the plane is in the vertical. The more you increase the turn  rate while vertical the less time you spend in the vertical, and the faster you're going when you complete the immel. You're left in a better position and with greater maneuverability. The enemy pilot is stilll trying to finish his 'loop' and you've already rolled out and started pulling into him. This is an advantaged position in an angles game. The extra energy the f4u saved on the merge isn't enough to rope (attempting a double immel is a bad idea due to the loss in angle), and it isn't enough to make up for the poor position and maneuverability. An expert pilot would start working into a vertical scissors here, but the jug's extra speed and supperior low speed flaps will still usually give it the fight.

-pellik

[bozon]

ok, lets do think about this logically.

max turn rate is capped at 6G. If you can pull this without flaps, they will not help you with turn rate. Even with flaps out, most planes are able to pull into the blackout at lower speeds than the jug can.
Hense, turn rate is not really better. Turn radius is.

if you are talking about vertical reversal (immelman), low enough speeds for flaps to add lift are reached. In this case flaps will help you.
BUT, those are speeds in the order of ~250mph or less where all US planes can pop out flaps. The Jug's and P51's advantage is that they can save the actual time it takes the flaps to deploy. it helps a little but that is it.

If not really fast, the Jug's E damping will hurt it's turn rate in exchange to smaller turn radius. It will quickly fall below it's (high) corner speed and cannot maintain max G, while spits or P38 for example will still be comming around at 6G, flaps or no flaps.
So, flaps out will first increase turn rate and then turn you into a flying brick, stall buzzer horning.

The reason you think you turn faster than the spit is that if the spit tries lead turning you (as they usually do), the fast slowing down and his E retantion will place you deep inside his circle. that's geometry, not a faster turn.
The top side shot you mentioned, actually means the spit turned about 180 degrees while you turned about 90 degrees after the HO merge.

Bozon

[YUCCA]

Well i will give honest opinion-even if yall dont care!

Jug-11: Best at turning. fastest, accelerates the worst and climbs the worst.

Jug-25: It's d40 and d11 crossbreed- though honestly i notice no handling differnce between it and d40

Jug-40: My fav: Best accel/climb/stablilty/view

thats about it

[pellik]

Originally posted by bozon
ok, lets do think about this logically.

max turn rate is capped at 6G. If you can pull this without flaps, they will not help you with turn rate. Even with flaps out, most planes are able to pull into the blackout at lower speeds than the jug can.
Hense, turn rate is not really better. Turn radius is.


Like I said, 6g is relative to your speed. 6g at a slower speed is a faster turn then 6 g at a higher speed.


if you are talking about vertical reversal (immelman), low enough speeds for flaps to add lift are reached. In this case flaps will help you.
BUT, those are speeds in the order of ~250mph or less where all US planes can pop out flaps. The Jug's and P51's advantage is that they can save the actual time it takes the flaps to deploy. it helps a little but that is it.

I ran a few tests and found that the jug seems to immel about 2 seconds faster from 400mph with a notch of flaps. 20 seconds to immel with em, 22 without.


If not really fast, the Jug's E damping will hurt it's turn rate in exchange to smaller turn radius. It will quickly fall below it's (high) corner speed and cannot maintain max G, while spits or P38 for example will still be comming around at 6G, flaps or no flaps.
So, flaps out will first increase turn rate and then turn you into a flying brick, stall buzzer horning.

A big part of learning to be successful turnfighting in american planes is to know when it works to your advantage to be low E. For the first part of the fight you want to be turning fast, but if you do things right you want to have a lower radius pretty quickly thereafter. The la7 has a significant energy advantage over the jug, but it's not really much of a threat on account of it's over abundance of speed. A jug pilot will usually start to fight nose down with flaps out here anyway, so the lower E state isn't too much of a problem.


The reason you think you turn faster than the spit is that if the spit tries lead turning you (as they usually do), the fast slowing down and his E retantion will place you deep inside his circle. that's geometry, not a faster turn.
The top side shot you mentioned, actually means the spit turned about 180 degrees while you turned about 90 degrees after the HO merge.


No, that wouldn't be an immel on my part then. If I do an immel I turn 180. The jug can beat the spit around on account of its lower E state. A spitV can dump E fast enough to get in if he planes his merge correctly, but a spit9 will not complete his immel as fast as the jug. Thus I am wings level and pointing at him while he is still inverted pulling back to level. The shot you get here is an approximate 175 degree aot shot, just shy of a HO. If he 'lead turns' me on a merge like this after we both dive I'm going to saddle up on him in the verticle. He really can't pull up until our planes have nearly passed. A little bit of lead turn (right as the planes pass) is more or less expected of us both.

-pellik

[Urchin]

20 seconds for an immelman seems like a godawful long time.