Unleash the mossie

[GScholz]

Those numbers still don't represent the total number of Mossies lost, only a part of them, because they only represent a part of the RAF that deployed the Mossie. I don't know where to find all the numbers, I certainly don't have them.

[Karnak]

Well, in Fighter Command and Coastal Command the losses of FB.Mk VIs and FB.Mk XVIIIs were significantly higher due to their mission profiles. Many FB.Mk VIs and FB.Mk XVIIIs were lost to accidents and AA fire from the ground and ships.  Likewise fighters were a much higher threat to Mosquitos operating in the low level attack profile.

I would imagine that NF Mosquitos had a significantly lower loss rate due to their role.  Being the hunter helps a lot, especially when the hunter is surrounded by sheep and cannot be differentiated by his intended victim.

Originally posted by GScholz
Edit: After checking, Kurt Welter was credited with 63 victories not 34. Of those 63 victories were 9 daylight Mosquitoes (7 in 190, 2 in 262) and 33 night Mosquitoes (unknown marks).

Here is your original post.  The 7 daylight victories in the Fw190 could have been anything, but were most likely FB.VIs.  The Fw190 could certainly intercept a B.Mk IV or PR.Mk IV if it were positioned correctly, but it would be harder.  The two in the Me262 would almost certainly have been PR.Mk IVs or PR.Mk XVIs.  The night claims would mostly have been bombers with only the rare NF as an additional option if he was operating against the RAF bomber streams as (nearly?) all Luftwaffe nightfighters did.  If he was operating outside of the bomber stream interceptors he would have been getting FB.Mk VIs and NFs being used for straffing targets of oportunity.

Other twin engined twin engined RAF aircraft operating at night in 1944 and 1945 would have been the Wellington and Beaufighter.

[MiloMorai]

Mossies that FTR from a mission - cause unknown

W4054   PRI   1PRU   Missing from PR mission to Trondheim 28.3.43
W4055   PRI   1PRU   Missing from PR mission to Trondheim 4.12.41
W4056   PRI   1PRU   Missing from PR mission to Trondheim 2.4.42
W4058   PRI   1PRU/1PRU   Missing from PR mission to Oslo 17.10.42
W4060   PRI   AAEE/1PRU/540   Missing from PR mission to Bergen 20.2.43
W4065   BIV   AFDU/105   Missing (Bremen) 19.8.42
W4068   BIV   105   Missing (Cologne) 1.6.42
W4069   BIV   105   Missing (Wilhelmshaven) 16.7.42
DD616   NFII   151/60OTU/151/141/169   Missing from bomber support mission to Cologne 21.4.44
DD661   NFII   264   Missing from night intruder mission to Rennes 11.3.43
DD674   NFII   23/410   Missing from day intruder mission 6.4.43
DD677   NFII   23   Missing 29.7.42
DD684   NFII   23   Missing 9.9.42
DD689   NFII   23   Missing 9.9.42
DD712   NFII   23   Missing 29.11.42
DD721   NFII   264   Missing from night intruder mission to Rennes 12.3.43
DD739   NFII   85/456   Missing on bomber support mission to Kassel 4.12.43
DD779   NFII   410/169   Missing from bomber support mission 3.5.44
DD781   NFII   85/264/307   Missing over Bay of Biscay 25.10.43
DD800   NFII   301FTU/1 OADU/23   Missing on patrol from Malta 2.3.43

This is only the W and DD series.

The list is there for anyone to go through, and you to Scholz.

http://www.dehavilland.ukf.net/_DH98%20prodn%20list.txt

[simshell]

what is PR mission?

[thrila]

photo recce

[Angus]

The anti-shipping role the Mossie was used for was not exactly the Pilot's favourite. Long flight legs, only to get into heavy flak at close range.
However, the Mossie could break a destroyer with a rocket salvo, or so it was said.

Anyway, an amazing record, losing that few!

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Karnak
I would imagine that NF Mosquitos had a significantly lower loss rate due to their role.  Being the hunter helps a lot, especially when the hunter is surrounded by sheep and cannot be differentiated by his intended victim.

 
Here is your original post.  The 7 daylight victories in the Fw190 could have been anything, but were most likely FB.VIs.  The Fw190 could certainly intercept a B.Mk IV or PR.Mk IV if it were positioned correctly, but it would be harder.  The two in the Me262 would almost certainly have been PR.Mk IVs or PR.Mk XVIs.  The night claims would mostly have been bombers with only the rare NF as an additional option if he was operating against the RAF bomber streams as (nearly?) all Luftwaffe nightfighters did.  If he was operating outside of the bomber stream interceptors he would have been getting FB.Mk VIs and NFs being used for straffing targets of oportunity.

Other twin engined twin engined RAF aircraft operating at night in 1944 and 1945 would have been the Wellington and Beaufighter.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable, I only have a few comments. The German night-fighters differentiated the different types of planes by their speed. A Mosquito did stand out of the pack in that regard. I remind you that Welter's unit of 190s and later 262s was specifically tasked with countering the Mosquito incursions over Germany. I would surmise that his unit was responsible for most of the Mosquitoes lost to enemy fighters during that period (early '44 - '45).

[Scherf]

Hi Gents:

Bob Baxter's Bomber Command site, another one of those "life's work" things, ( http://www.bomber-command.info/ ) has Mossie losses by squad and operation, at the level of individual aircraft serials.

He lists a total of 535 BC Mosquitos to all causes.  He has "operations" info for 414 of them - this includes aircraft which crashlanded at base on return from an operation (not apparent from the site, but on cross-referencing with other sources, it's clear this is so). The other 121 appear to have been lost to non-operational accidents, etc.

His total also includes night fighter aircraft attached to 100 Group. From very late 1943, this Group supported the heavies by tackling German nightfighters, following on from W/C Braham's work earlier that year with Beaufighters on 141 Squadron.

Naturally, neither of the Bomber Command sites will list Fighter Command losses. I believe PR aircraft were at least initially attached to Coastal Command, so they won't show up either.

Some but certainly not all of the FB.VI losses will be included in the databases above - again, squadrons attached to Bomber Command carrying out support ops.

I'm working on my own database of losses / fates - get back to me in three or four years and I might have an answer for you. Mossie losses, being relatively few, appear much easier to tie back to individual LW reports than seems to be true for other types.

Cheers,

Scherf


Edited for accuracy - I was originally looking at only one of Bob's lists; the one which states what the operation was. The additional group of Mossies has no "operational" info, since they were not on ops at the time they were lost.

[Guppy35]

I wonder if the 2 Group RAF Mossies were counted as part of Bomber Commad.  I kind of doubt it which might explain the discrepency.

Dan/Slack

[Scherf]

Hi Dan:

See my edit for the discrepancy.

You raise a very good point though - I've never been clear on whether 2 Group fell under Fighter Command, Bomber Command, or was a completely independent unit.

There will also be some FB.VI losses in Mediterranean Command (not sure if that is the correct term) and Far East Command (ditto).

Cheers,

Scherf

[hogenbor]

420 IAS at 19.000 feet would be how much TAS?

And wouldn't a AH Mossie just break at that speed?

Love the Mosquito as an aircraft, but not much in AH, it bleeds E too much for that.