German Planes/HTC

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I use a dora or a G10 to drive the La7's away...

Crumpp

Yeah ... I only use the La-5 for sort of proximity defense ... when the furball is a half sector from base and low. Lets me get in and out well.

[Misfit]

ya, i flew the La-5 last night for the 1st time. This plane is Awesome. the eny value alone makes it worth flying.

Maybe i should ditch the german squad and start a VVS squad

[o0Stream140o]

I want to add some stuff to this...

am sure that some of the opposition would have some question as to my answers but in general I believe all but the best German aces would agree with my answers.
In short we did everything better than the Me-109 or the FW-190. Toward the end of the war, they introduced newer models with larger engines and sometimes the answer is not that clear. The TA-152 (Varient of FW-190) could fly higher and faster than the P-51 at most higher altitudes but they got very few into the war.
But for the average Me-109 and FW 190 that we encountered, we were faster at all altitudes, we climbed better (some claim this is not true), and we flew far higher than the FW-190 and about to the same height as a Me-109 (41,??? feet). The long nosed FW-190 is a question mark as several P-51 pilots stated it ran away from them at various altitudes. I do not know BUT when 4 of us bounced 40 of them at 30,000 feet, we did everything better than they did. Outturned, outsped and outclimbed them. We destroyed 4 of them and they got none of us. I even have the names of the ones we killed. The Czechs found the aircraft (3 FW 190Ds and 1 FW 190A-8)with the pilots still in them. Eventually I found myself alone with them (25 or so) and after several minutes, it started getting too hot for me and I broke for home. Some 190Ds (12 - 15??) chased me to the Alps but could not catch me.
Initially when we got the P-51, they would stay and fight with us but then it got to the point that when we bounced them, even if they outnumbered us, they would normally break for the deck and we had to chase, catch, and destroy them.
If Hitler had allowed the Me-262 to be used from the beginning as a fighter rather than a fighter-bomber, the situation could have become much more complicated.
As I have said before, the quality of the pilot had a great deal to do with the outcome of the encounter. I recall one Luftwaffe pilot who admitted the Spitfire could outturn the 109 but then added that no Spit ever outturned him. It would seem to me that the area where the 109 was better, was in its ability to fly at a lower airspeed than we could and climb very well. With the 190, it took a lot of punishment, had a high rate of roll, and could climb at a very steep attitude which if we followed brought us down too far below our best climb speed. Four of our guys reported such an incident in which the FW-190s were able to stay ahead of our birds and each time we would raise our nose to take a shot at them, our bird would stall. An interesting tactic.
Cordially, Art

[Crumpp]

But for the average Me-109 and FW 190 that we encountered, we were faster at all altitudes, we climbed better (some claim this is not true), and we flew far higher than the FW-190 and about to the same height as a Me-109 (41,??? feet). The long nosed FW-190 is a question mark as several P-51 pilots stated it ran away from them at various altitudes.

The P51 was by and far the most dangerous opponent for the LW IMO.  Much more so than the Spitfire.

Nice Pilot stories.  Start lining up specifics and things are quite different.  Going through that now in my research.  Running into plenty of "pilot anecdotes" that when you stack up the facts from both sides the stories just do not play out.

Example - One Spitfire Squadron in Italy 1943 claims to have been bounced by FW-190's while shooting up Italian transports coming from N. Africa.  They turned the table and did well against the "FW-190's".  

Unfortunately there were NO FW-190 fighters even in the theater much less escorting foreign allied transports.  The only FW-190's around were on the other side of the med attacking ground targets and belonged to a dedicated ground attack unit.

Now there were Reggia 2002's in the vicinty and plenty of Macchi 202's.

Another example.  Some FW-190's encounter "P40's" and a large dogfight ensues.  One pilot in particular files claims for EIGHT P40's.  Turns out they were Italian Macchi 202's and only 3 were damaged in the encounter.  All landed safely and were pissed!

It is very easy to go to both sides and get tons of "our planes rocked" data.  Are they lying?  No of course not.  They are simply telling the truth from one particular point of view.  Got an interview with an FW-190 pilot tonight.  Sure I will get some great stories!

Thanks for sharing!

Crumpp

[o0Stream140o]

Originally posted by Crumpp
The P51 was by and far the most dangerous opponent for the LW IMO.  Much more so than the Spitfire.

Nice Pilot stories.  Start lining up specifics and things are quite different.  Going through that now in my research.  Running into plenty of "pilot anecdotes" that when you stack up the facts from both sides the stories just do not play out.

Example - One Spitfire Squadron in Italy 1943 claims to have been bounced by FW-190's while shooting up Italian transports coming from N. Africa.  They turned the table and did well against the "FW-190's".  

Unfortunately there were NO FW-190 fighters even in the theater much less escorting foreign allied transports.  The only FW-190's around were on the other side of the med attacking ground targets and belonged to a dedicated ground attack unit.

Now there were Reggia 2002's in the vicinty and plenty of Macchi 202's.

Another example.  Some FW-190's encounter "P40's" and a large dogfight ensues.  One pilot in particular files claims for EIGHT P40's.  Turns out they were Italian Macchi 202's and only 3 were damaged in the encounter.  All landed safely and were pissed!

It is very easy to go to both sides and get tons of "our planes rocked" data.  Are they lying?  No of course not.  They are simply telling the truth from one particular point of view.  Got an interview with an FW-190 pilot tonight.  Sure I will get some great stories!

Thanks for sharing!

Crumpp

Actually,
  He is friends with one of the 109 pilots he faced in one air battle. He is trying to get contact info for me.  I posted a picture of them in the CT bbs.  I do agree that there is a lot of "our planes rocked" but these guys took these planes to the limit in a life or death situations...

They would know the performance of there planes better than anyone else... I hope you understand what I mean..  Facts are facts... but it's not the same thing when you're flying that plane.  I only wish I could have had that chance...

 I can get info on the P-40F in the MTO from one of the top 325th ace, I have emailed back and forth with him a couple of times... I try not to push him, but he is a great guy with a wealth of knowledge.

[Crumpp]

I do agree that there is a lot of "our planes rocked" but these guys took these planes to the limit in a life or death situations...

No doubt they did and I am not taking a thing away from their abilities or bravery.

There is nothing in the world like combat and no way to describe it adequately to those have not been under hostile fire.

They would know the performance of there planes better than anyone else...

However the "reality" we experience in that situation is not always the ground truth and you will be hard pressed to find a pilot who talks bad about the plane that saved his life everyday.

You may know your equipment but you certainly do not know the enemies or their level of skill at using it.

If you study LW casualties, the Pre-1943 trained pilots took casualties at a steady rate throughout the war with a surprisingly slight increase the last years of the war.

The Post-1943 trained pilots died like flies and sustained an almost 98 percent casualty rate.  If they could survive their first six missions, their chances of surviving the whole war went up astronomically.

The Luftwaffe had very competitive fighters.  They did not have easy fighters to fight nor did the tactics they used come naturally.

Energy fighting takes knowledge and discipline.  It is not natural to loose sight of the enemy on the reversal or to let them go and extend.  It is much more natural to lock your eyes on the enemy and follow them around the sky until they come into your gunsite.    

Give the NASM a call and tell them how "crappy" and "poor" performing Luftwaffe fighters were in WWII.  

They just finished restoring a BMW-801D and a BMW-801TS.

Crumpp