Author Topic: My guess...  (Read 1088 times)

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2004, 03:54:30 PM »
Bomber guns in AH are still over accurate..


Offline Karnak

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2004, 04:01:34 PM »
Heh.

That looks pretty close to what I was getting out of my Ki-67's guns last night, Wotan.

You are right that they are still more accurate than in reality, but the fact is that is they get any weaker they will be absolutely useless and bombers will go away completely.

The bombers here don't have massive formations to offer mutual support.  They are all effectively stragglers.  Further there is no structure that enforces massive bomber formations and no target valuable enough to motivate the players to form such formations themselves.
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2004, 04:21:53 PM »
First, formations weren't that "massive" in rl. They were about a max of 36 planes in a squadron, stacked. These "formations / squadrons" were spaced over hundreds of miles. The idea that 100s of planes flew in some sort of mutual suporting formation is nonsense.

Second, even with the bombers in these formations the accurracy of their defensive fire was low. The best strategy to project the bombers was to intercept the enemy fighters before they could attack, particularly while they were forming up.

Quote
You are right that they are still more accurate than in reality, but the fact is that is they get any weaker they will be absolutely useless and bombers will go away completely.


One can only hope, but in events in ToD where we see larger formations of bombers they have the added advantage of more accurate fire power. This usually gets offset by the lag in that the bomber gunners while in large formations and attacked by large groups of fighters have trouble tracking the attackers due to the warps that follow.

Most bomber formations in events when they get attcked are attacked until they are entirely destroyed. This is because of the suicide nature of the attacker and an improper undisciplined escort strategy..

However, in AH most bomber sorties consist of 3k noe suicide raids or the much talked about "4 eng dive bombers". I could argue that if the bomber defense guns were as accurate as rl then it would force folks to fly them in a more realistic fashion. But we both know that isn't true.

 First, there's very little reason to fly bombers now. Large gaggles of fighter-bomber raids and much more efficient.

Second, despite all this call for "organization and team work" folks would just stop flying them all together as you suggest. Which wouldn't be a bad thing imo but woulkd alienate the 15 or so guys that are regular bomber types.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2004, 04:31:04 PM »
Well, last night DKPotter and myself were in Ki-67s at 20,000ft.  Enroute to the target I drove off an Fw190 and hiting it with a few rounds for no visible damage.  As we bombed a Rook city there was an La-7 that was closing on DKPotter's formation, but it broke off after we dropped our bombs.

On the return leg an Fw190 (the same one from earlier?) attacked.  From 800 yards out it killed the tailgunner on DKPotter's main bomber and closed with his formation.  After setting one of his bombers ablaze it looped to come around again.  As it set up it's next pass I plinked it a few times with my nose guns, but had to expend nearly all of the ammo to do so. It attacked him again and heavily damaged another Ki-67, but he said he'd hit it with some 20mm rounds.  

It then broke off it's attack on DKPotter and came for me.  Flying straight up my 6 'oclock it took out one of my bombers before I finanly managed to bring it down with wing damage to it's out right wing.
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Offline TBolt A-10

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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2004, 04:36:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by United
B-24J.  Its got 10 .50s, all in good positions.  You wont have much of a problem knocking anything out of the sky. :aok


how many rounds per gun?

i hope the gunner's firing model is tweaked a bit.  as it is now, D1000 seems to be the closest possible shot.  :confused: by D800, that Fw is blowing pieces off your bomber.  :(

Offline rabbidrabbit

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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2004, 04:37:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Heh.

That looks pretty close to what I was getting out of my Ki-67's guns last night, Wotan.

You are right that they are still more accurate than in reality, but the fact is that is they get any weaker they will be absolutely useless and bombers will go away completely.

The bombers here don't have massive formations to offer mutual support.  They are all effectively stragglers.  Further there is no structure that enforces massive bomber formations and no target valuable enough to motivate the players to form such formations themselves.


Thats because there is little strategical impetus  for them to do so.  If there were a few higher bases and real targets for raids such as a ENY limiter factory etc...  then there would be more use.

Offline Pyro

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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2004, 04:47:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Bomber guns in AH are still over accurate..

 


Why only post that picture and not a corresponding screenshot to validate your statement or at least mention some specifics?  I just did a quick test firing of the Martin turret on the B-17 and it also shows a 20 foot pattern at 600 yards.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2004, 05:01:58 PM »
From a gameplay standpoint, the bomber guns issue is no win.

If the bomber guns are accurate and powerful the fighter jocks scream about turbo lasers and flak wagons. If the bomber guns are inaccurate and suitable only for backyard plinking the bomber guys complain and the fighter jocks (who must have something to whine about) complain about the fact that the bombers can still hit things with their bombs or are flying to low or too high or don't blow up quickly enough and so on...

Did I prefer the AH1 bomber guns model? Heck yeah, I don't generally even fly bombers anymore out of sheer frustration but am I going to insist on yet another adjustment so I can shoot fighters down again and get shot down by bombers myself when I'm in a fighter? No, what would be the point? At least when the bomber community ox is being gored, its a smaller group doing the complaining.

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Offline TBolt A-10

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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2004, 05:06:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
I just did a quick test firing of the Martin turret on the B-17 and it also shows a 20 foot pattern at 600 yards.


First, isn't it "feet" instead of yards?

Second, where is the merge set at, Pyro?  I can't tell.

Thank you.

Offline United

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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2004, 05:10:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TBolt A-10
how many rounds per gun?

i hope the gunner's firing model is tweaked a bit.  as it is now, D1000 seems to be the closest possible shot.  :confused: by D800, that Fw is blowing pieces off your bomber.  :(

From what Ive read, it varies.  Ive read that B-24Js carried anywhere from 5000 to 7000 rounds of ammo total (meaning all guns: Nose, Tail, top turret, ball turret, and both waist positions).  Im not sure, but I believe it is a little less than the B-17G modeled in AH carries.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2004, 05:12:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
That may be, but I also give the fighter a better chance at downing the B-24.  The B-17 was so over built that it was significantly more durable.  It is likely that the Lancaster was also more durable.


I think that's the impression people got but I don't know that it's completely accurate.

Part of it was that the 17 is clearly the more photogenic of the two.  It got the better press, and served with the 8th which got the most coverage.

I would have believed it until I got hooked in researching a B24 crew for a guy whose brother had been killed in one.  It was a tough beast too.

Of the 18 missions flown by 'my crew' before they were downed by flak over Vienna they took fairly heavy damage on at least 5 of them, including losing two engines, losing a single engine, having a flak shell go through the bomb bay, taking out the doors and catwalk and going out the top of the plane.  They had flak knock out the windshield as well and finally went down to a direct hit by a flak shell in the cockpit that killed both pilots and blew out the roof.  Even then had someone been able to fly it, the 24 might have gotten down ok.

And on an earlier flight they had run out of fuel over the Adriatic and the pilot was able to stretch the glide to get it down fairly intact just beyond the beach.

I could post photos of an 8th AF 24 coming home with only one elevator and rudder.  Theres photos of one coming home with a huge hole in the wing, large enough to make you wonder why it didn't snap.  Lots of photos of blown out bomb bay doors, fuselage missing etc.  Just like the 17s.

There's even an 'action' photo taken of a 380th BG B24 with a full bomb load pulling out of a straight nose down dive towards the water.  If you believe what you hear, it should have ripped the wings off, but they got it back intact.

17 just got better press :)

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Offline B17Skull12

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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2004, 05:33:12 PM »
17 was all around better.

it didn't get heavy above 25k like the 24 did.
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Offline United

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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2004, 05:39:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B17Skull12
17 was all around better.

it didn't get heavy above 25k like the 24 did.

I completely disagree with you.  The only factful statement you made was that the 24 got harder to fly at high alt.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2004, 05:55:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by United
I completely disagree with you.  The only factful statement you made was that the 24 got harder to fly at high alt.


It's amazing what a little publicity and a movie or two can do to convince folks about things isn't it United :)

17 was out of combat by late 43 in the Pacific.  They wanted 24s.  Better range, bombload etc.

B24s filled 15 of the 21 bomb groups operating out of Italy with the 15th AF.  That leaves 6 for the 17.

11th AF in the Aleutians flew 24s in that gawd awful weather consistantly.  13th AF in the Pacific was 24s.  RAF and RAAF in the CBI was 24s.  The Navy flew numerous Squadrons with 24s.

Only with the 8th did the 17s outnumber the 24 groups.  But of course the movies got made about the 8th and the press was better so the 17 got most of it

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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2004, 05:59:16 PM »
Guppy,

The reason for the 24s being preffered in those theaters came down to one reason only and it wasn't payload, flying characteristics or durbility.  It was range.


I might agree with you about it all being due to films if the Germans didn't also count the B-17 as markedly tougher with np prompting from Hollywood.
Petals floating by,
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