Head-Ons... how to get rid of them?

[Wraith]

Everyone complains about head ons, and every time that happens, someone points out that in real life a head-on was avoided because it was too dangerous (hey, a 20mm cannon shell in my chest don't look good!).

The reasons why HO is done here is simple:

1)Its easy to get a kill with, the plane with bigger guns/ROF/Aim wins. HO a B-26 in a HogC? NO PROBLEM! Bring it on!

2)You're behind a screen, not a cockpit. I bet if you were in a cockpit you sure as hell wouldn't get on a collision course with another plane, closure rate of 800 MPH AND whizzing bullets to throw in the kettle. I DIED! Weee! Lets try it again! (I bet WW2 pilots wouldve LOVED to be able to do this!).

Its easy and there is no "real danger" to the player (yeah, make em lose a .exe file at random on their system every time they die... that would kick in their self-preservation instincts *wicked grin*), thus there is no motivation to NOT die (some players dont care if they kamikaze against an ack, or run out of gas over enemy territory, etc..they happily respawn).

How to give a player a motivation to not "die"??

I repost an idea from a previous thread in which my humble pocket got whacked  :

Make RANKS for players. If I am able to win RANK by getting kills and NOT dying, then I would not only get a nice rank insignia (and perhaps some rank priviledges..like painting your plane or something!), but I also get a REASON to stay alive. If I get killed...well, there goes the rank and I start again as a miserable latrine aviator (personifying the "replacement pilot" that took the place of the glorious dead Captain that got shot down over F12).

I previously suggested that certain planes be open to certain ranks..some people did not like the idea *shrug*.. I think its cool and somewhat logical.. the Luftwaffles wouldn't give an ME-262 to any green pilot, nor would the Brits give the Gloster Meteor to a yank with 12 hours flight time logged.

The point here is to GIVE the player a REASON to stay alive. Got any other suggestions on how to do this? Post em here!

And before someone says "Then low ranks will always HO" I say: If they HO, they never get rank or good stuff.. and it takes 2 to HO. If the Colonel HO's, then he's a stupid Colonel and deserves a humiliating death. Low on E, can't avoid a HO Mr Colonel? Gee, too bad, that's your fault, the plane didn't "decide" to lose the E on its own.. besides, you CAN live if you bail out, no need to stay with the sinking ship eh?

Chute shooters? Aaaww... too bad, it happened in RL too, dont open chute till the last moment then  

'nuff rambling.. NEXT!

[Pyro]

It's really a matter of trying to balance out not wanting to die vs flying recklessly.  If you really penalize dying heavily, nobody wants to engage unless they have a big advantage and that's not very fun in the main arena.  While a lot of old timers forget it, the main arena is the place to cut your teeth on ACM vs real humans and to have fun.  

We do have a system worked out that will affect how people are rewarded for their flying, but that's at least 2 versions away.  More details will come when we start to work on it.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Perfect plans, aren't.

[HaHa]

I like it.. like it a lot. The days of non-persistent multiplayer gaming is in the past.

Sure recording ones score and seeing it go up as time goes by is fun. However, the real fun is "achieving" something. As per an article I read a while back the two key goals of any good multiplayer game is:

glory and shame

Glory when you reach that next level/rank and can buy that new sword/tank. Shame when you die and lose that level/rank and your brand new sword/tank. It's what makes games exciting and thrilling... the reward of success makes it all the more worthwhile.

Why do you think muds were so successful ? There were no graphics all it was, was chat and text battles. The "addiction" part was the fact you really felt you achieved something when your character gained experience.

UO, EQ, AC and all the other RPGs have definitely proved this.. it's now time for the SIMs/RTSs (*cough* I'm developing a simple RTS on this concept   ) follow suit.

[Kieren]

I'd like a show of hands...

How many have killed Mitsu? (1...2..3..)

Ok, how many wasted Fishu? (1...2...)

1999? (...1...)

This is under circumstances where we all fly the same planes. You want to put these guys above nearly untouchable to godhood?

Give Hristo that 262 and see if you ever, EVER touch him.  

Point being, you would guarantee the game would be totally ruled by a few elite pilots, with little opportunity for advancement for new pilots. Rank is one thing; limiting aircraft is utterly unworkable to me.

I wouldn't mind seeing rank, though it is highly unlikely I would ever see advancement... too willing to die to save a bud or a base.  

[CavemanJ]

here's an idea
give a free month to the pilot who lands the most kills in a TOD (since a TOD is a month).  Kills gotten on sorties where the pilot bailed, ditched, or died dinnae count for the total.  A pilot can only win it once every 3 months.

another comment from the peanut gallery  

[Kieren]

Now there you go Cave!  

[bloom25]

I've been shot down by Mitsu, does that count?    (I think I did shoot him down once back in beta.   ) I honestly don't think I ever engaged Fishu.  Fishu, are you still playing?

Personally HO's don't bother me too much.  I generally try pretty hard to avoid them.  In some cases I like it when the other guy goes for a HO.  Sometimes I make it look like I'm going to HO, and when the other guy pulls up to accept the HO, I zoom up and wait for him to stall.  (It's fun to do this in the 109, that thing can hang on it's prop forever.   )

I'm curious to hear about what HTC has developed.

bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Tern]

 

Originally posted by Wraith:
Everyone complains about head ons, and every time that happens, someone points out that in real life a head-on was avoided because it was too dangerous (hey, a 20mm cannon shell in my chest don't look good!).

...NEXT!

Okay.  Here's the scoop on HO's.  WW2 in the CBI (China-Burma-India) theater.  Claire Chenault advocated HO's with the P-40's agains the Zero's in the opening days of the war.  (Siddown in back!  This is documented fact!)  Chenault new that four .50's would cream a Zero whch at that time only carried 7.5mm mg's!  
(GASPS!  SCREAMS of HEREASY!)
Yeah, in the early days of the US' involvement in the war, our Airmen in the CBI were trained to do three things:
1) CLIMB! CLIMB! CLIMB!
2) DIVE!
3) Head on Attack for the sure kill!

Yeah, when the cannons came in, the P-40 was outgunned, but not before the Japanese suffered horrible losses against no more than 18 OPERATIONAL P-40's at ANY GIVEN TIME in the CBI.  This let us get our war machine up and running and cost the Japanese 663 planes to, (I believe but may be wrong) 58 P-40 losses in aerial combat.  

That said.  How do you avoid the HO when it is forced on you?

Hopefully you have some vertical closure.  If so go inverted and angle OFF the HO until range gets to D1.  Rudder roll/barrel roll out of there or into his nose and blast as you pass.  You should be able to judge where his nose is pointing and keep it away from your plane.

In a coalt HO, close to D1.5 or D1 and either snap roll out of his guns, or skid away with rudder and LIGHT stick movements.  Soon as you see him shoot, open separation with more stick and rudder.  (I do this in a dive if coalt and roll with rudders to spoil his shot.)

Both methods work for me 90% of the time.  Other times I accept the HO and skid INTO it at the last second to get the shot.  Yeah I die, but he's beat up too so...)  

Shaw's will tell you all kinds of things on avoiding HO's.  Read it and then modify what you read to suit your tastes.



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Tern
"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"

[Hangtime]

"HO" = 'Horrible Opportunity'

It's like "Military Intelligence". Mutually exclusive concepts... and often utterly necessary together to survive in a combat enviornment.

Hang

[coyote]

 

Originally posted by Wraith:
Everyone complains about head ons

  Stop right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "EVERYONE" does not complain about "head ons".   Most pilots who are worth their salt don't even notice them because they don't engage in them unless they have a good reason.

If you don't want to deal with Head on attacks, don't fly a sime that has every plane controlled by a real human, go play EAW (it seems to suit you better)

Coyote(the pilot who has never been FORCED into a head on merge)

[Wraith]

I was generalizing, dont take it personally  

 

the pilot who has never been FORCED into a head on merge

Heehee.. stop flying the F4C or N1k .. or tell me when you fly   (kidding, dont blow over this hehe)

Pyro: Good point. Fun Vs Realism...the old problem  

I'm not talking about penalizing dying. Reward NOT dying, think of it that way *grin*
If I stay alive I get to paint my plane so my enemies tremble in fear...I get rank that will allow me to brag on my team...and who knows, I may even get me a joyride in the Me-163 Komet!  

Its good to know that this problem is being considered in 2 versions. Go HT!  

[This message has been edited by Wraith (edited 04-01-2000).]

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by bloom25:
I honestly don't think I ever engaged Fishu.  Fishu, are you still playing?

Once you have ate my lead  
And no, im not playing, been playing soldier on the ground, in Rogue Spear...
I Got bored to fly on routine basis and guess I am bit low on cash too  
(got ADSL etc....)

[Karnak]

Actually, he advocated that agains the Claude.  The Zero had 20mm cannon from the get go.  The IJN provided a very specific list of requirements, range, speed (over 300 knots) and armament (2 20mm cannon and 2 7.5mm machineguns).  Only Mitsubishi rose to the challenge to design and produce an aircraft that met all of those requirements.

Sisu

[Fishu]

Into the main discussion...

Only thing that bothers me with head-ons, is that, it happens too often, gets boring after while...
Not to talk about they are easy kills because they do head-on and not some neat maneuver to get on your six.. or then they will just run.
It's funny that they explain that with their lack of skills, but meanwhile they don't even think about getting more skilled.
You know, you don't get skills as a gods gift all the sudden!

[Sorrow[S=A]]

I disagree fishu:
I decline many many HO attempts but I don't prefer a nifty six manuever either. Just about the only HO I will accept is one in the vertical if I am going down and him up.
I honestly haven't given a bad one away on a merge for over a week now. And that was a cannon hog that picked a front quarter shot.