Its pretty remarkable...

[Kweassa]

Actually, Kweassa, the fundamental structure of the main arena indicates that the AH MA is not a war simulation. It is a war game.

 
 That's rubbish phookat. It's a discrimination started by some people that try to divide "simulation" from the "game".

 One group of people seeking less burden from realism sought to justify their own claims by saying, "this a game, not a simulation". Other group of people seeking fanatic levels of realism to the levels of tediousness also comment, "this should be a simulation, not a game".

 The two opposing parties suddenly had a common interest and decided to rip away the "simulation" part from the "game" part.

 
 Pure rubbish - Aces High is a game. It's genre is 'simulation'. This is a simulation game. It's a balance of simulated reality within manageable levels of gameplay.

 In other words, it's a "war simulation game". It's a "game" that tries to "simulate the historic war".

 Would this be so fun for us if it Aces High was "Dragon's High", based on some obscure fantasy land with dragons as our steeds?

 It might be fun for younger people, but at least for me, it holds none of the attractions and inspirations of a game based on World War II.

 Facts: Aces High, War Birds, Air Warrior, even Fighter Ace <- these are "simulation games".

[beet1e]

Correct again, Kweassa. And at 50 cents a day, AH has indeed been opened up to much younger players.

Would this be so fun for us if it Aces High was "Dragon's High", based on some obscure fantasy land with dragons as our steeds?  It might be fun for younger people, but at least for me, it holds none of the attractions and inspirations of a game based on World War II.

I can't help thinking that a lot of those youngsters might well be more content playing your hypothetical game, "Dragons High". Someone in their teens now might be several generations away from any family member who participated in WW2. For me, it was my parents' generation who came through it, which is why for us baby boomers, WW2 holds  historical interest, and for modern day teens probably holds none. So why do they come to AH? Probably because the software is well authored, the connections are great, and the customer support is there. All they want is aerial quake, and that's what they can have - as long as they don't mind their vehicles having WW2 names.

[Midnight]

Gameplay seems to be a degenerative thing. The reason for it is LACK of realism structure or game rules.

What I mean is that when Ships were first introduced, very few if any players tried to shoot them with guns/cannons to sink them. It was cool to try and use torpedos or shore guns or level bombing or actual dive bombing planes.

HTC changed level bomber aiming system (bombsight calibration) which has virtually eliminated the chances of a high altitude level bomber hitting a CV. Why? Because if the boat turns just once, the bomber has to calibrate all over again. ... Bring in low level LANCs to make the kill instead.

Now HTC has changed the boats so that individual guns can be destroyed. That change has encouraged players to start strafing ships with guns/cannons. This has lead to players finding out that the ship itself can be damaged with those same guns/cannons. That has encouraged some of the anti-shipping tactics seen now.

Gameplay changes have been historically bad for game play and HTC doesn't seem to do anything to make things better (better is a perspective view)

---------

No one bothers attacking truck convoys anymore. Why? Well, MGs have virtually no effect on trucks. It takes almost 250 rounds of .50 to kill a single truck at point blank range (Tested several times in M16 on the roadside). If you're a plane with just 1 bomb, you are better off just bombing the town where the targets are stationary and chances off killing multiple buildings are higher. It's also easier to kill a town building than a truck, so why bother chasing them?

---------

We used to have fuel burn of 1.5, so everyone flew at 100% most of the time. HTC made engine and prop settings do more now, but people kept flying at 100% all the time. To force people to use the engine/prop features, fuel burn was increased to 2.0. Because of that, fuel porkage became an import way to cripple the enemy. Now, to prevent the whining, HTC has changed things so fuel can no longer be porked to less than 75%.... More gameplay degeneration.

Unfortunately, I think that AH gameplay isn't going to get better. Sure we'll get new planes, but what will that change?

We're getting a B24 soon... So? It's new, but that doesn't mean they will be used any differently than the B17s and Lancs now. Low level death drops on targets.

We're getting KI84 soon... So? It's new, but how will that change what the current air combat situation is?

What's the new Tank? Does it matter? will it change how the GV war is fought? I doubt it.

[phookat]

Originally posted by Kweassa
That's rubbish phookat. It's a discrimination started by some people that try to divide "simulation" from the "game".

No, actually, it's not.  There are two aspects to this game which are treated completely differently by the creators of the game.  I am speaking now of "how it is", not "how it should be".  The fact of the matter is that the situation and objectives of the wargame part of this game (i.e. the AH MA) are deliberately unrealistic.  While all the physics are deliberately made as realistic as possible (at least the attempt is made).  So there is a difference, and there always has been.

The wargame aspect is treated differently in scenarios and maybe ToD.

[phookat]

Originally posted by beet1e
All they want is aerial quake, and that's what they can have - as long as they don't mind their vehicles having WW2 names.

There's more to it than that.  I think I might have mentioned it.

In any case, without real military structure, you are not going to get people behaving exactly how you want (i.e. everyone flying at 30K alt, if that is what you want).

[phookat]

Originally posted by Midnight
We're getting a B24 soon... So? It's new, but that doesn't mean they will be used any differently than the B17s and Lancs now. Low level death drops on targets.

We're getting KI84 soon... So? It's new, but how will that change what the current air combat situation is?

What's the new Tank? Does it matter? will it change how the GV war is fought? I doubt it.

What you seem to be asking for cannot be done in an arena-type environment.  What you want is scenarios, or ToD.

[Stang]

Beet, I still fail to see how fighting a jug low on the deck is "gamey"  Gamey I think by definition would be to take advantage of a situation by exploiting an inherent flaw in the game (spawn camping).  But flying a jug otd?  LOL doing that is just gonna get you killed so fast it's rediculous.  Heck you can dive from 10k in a jug to the deck then try to run away but w/in a few minutes an la7 that was slow when you started your dive will catch up to you.  I'd think you'd love to see a low jug because it would be an easy kill for you.  Then again you gotta come down to get it  

[beet1e]

Midnight said "We're getting KI84 soon... So? It's new, but how will that change what the current air combat situation is? " B-b-but aren't you forgetting something? That ki84 will have a polished aluminium belly which is going to transform gameplay!  Muhahaha just kidding An excellent post, sir. I once remarked upon all the hype that surrounded the launch of the P40, and said it would make little impact on the game. Sure enough, in the time since its introduction, it has killed me only 3 times.

You're right, and all these various new planes, new graphics and new paintjobs will make not one iota of difference to gameplay, and it's the gameplay that's causing people to quit or cut back their time.

Phookat - how old are you, if you don't mind my asking?

Originally posted by Stang
I still fail to see

Nothing more to be said.

[Stang]

LOL Beet, why don't you read the whole post before you go resort to your usual high minded blindness.  I guess gamey to you means simply taking a plane out of its historical role.  Fine, but that isn't gamey, gamey is using something out of its role or what it could actually DO and using it get an ADVANTAGE over other gamers.  How in the heck does flying a Jug on the deck give you an advantage?  Try answering the question this time please.

I once remarked upon all the hype that surrounded the launch of the P40, and said it would make little impact on the game. Sure enough, in the time since its introduction, it has killed me only 3 times.

Come find my p40 sometime Beet, I'll change that stat

[phookat]

Originally posted by beet1e
Phookat - how old are you, if you don't mind my asking?

The older side of completely indeterminate.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Stang
LOL Beet, why don't you read the whole post before you go resort to your usual high minded blindness.  I guess gamey to you means simply taking a plane out of its historical role.  Fine, but that isn't gamey, gamey is using something out of its role or what it could actually DO and using it get an ADVANTAGE over other gamers.  How in the heck does flying a Jug on the deck give you an advantage?  Try answering the question this time please.

High minded blindness? You're the one who said you couldn't see. ;)

What you have described is your interpretation of gamey. You say that taking a plane out of its historical role isn't gamey, eg. P47 turn fight on the deck. I disagree. That sure is gamey, in the sense that such an engagement would never have been entered into in RL. Only in a game, where the greatest thing at stake be a virtual life plus a bit of ego, would you see that. Hence, it is gamey.

As for your P40 prowess, you are 1.85/1 in the P40B, and 2.57/1 in the P40E. Am I supposed to be impressed? I'm mediocre and have no skill, but I have k/d better than 2.57 in twelve other fighters which do not form part of the Big-5.


Phookat - something to hide?

[phookat]

Neg.  Recognize the quote?  29, btw.  Yourself?

[moot]

stats aren't useful without context.  AH stats don't come with a context.

You could fly death-machine sorties for an hour without taking 1 bullet for 50 kills and then take it easy defending a swarmed and vulched base consequently reversing something like k/d ratio.

[J_A_B]

"That sure is gamey, in the sense that such an engagement would never have been entered into in RL. "


So you think P-47's were never flown at low altitude.  

"Never" is a pretty cut-and-dry word Beet, and you made a point of stressing it--which means you actually think that's the case.   Obviously it's untrue yet you present it as fact.  You claim to want "WW2 realism", yet from your posts I get a strong impression that you only think about one small facet of the air war when you mention WW2.

Apparently you forgot that P-47's were widely used as fighter-bombers, a job which often involved getting into fights with enemy fighters at low altitude (not to mention the flak).  Sure that didn't get the glory that the guys escoting the bombers got, but it still had to be done.  

Or, look up the battle on 1 Jan 1945 specifically at the Y-29 airfield if you want to see just one example of Mustangs and Jugs mixing it up on the deck in a massive dogfight (since one example is all it takes to destroy your use of "never").  Most accounts focus on the Mustangs, but there were P-47s present as well.

But more to the point:

Beet, your idea of WW2 is the one that seems pretty "selective".  All of WW2 wasn't fought at 400 MPH at 35K.  And...the guys who got shot down weren't flying straight and level.   75% of the guys who got shot down didn't see what hit them until it was too late....for the most part because they were in a crazy dogfight and their attention was focused in front of them.  

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As for the carrier issue--I don't think a global increase in tuffness is the answer.  Then you'd end up with stupidity like carriers absorbing 5 or 6 1000lb bomb hits and steaming along like nothing happened.  No, the simplest solution is to simply make ships (not gun positions, just the ship itself) completely immune to small weapons.

J_A_B

[Karnak]

Originally posted by J_A_B
And...the guys who got shot down weren't flying straight and level.   75% of the guys who got shot down didn't see what hit them until it was too late....for the most part because they were in a crazy dogfight and their attention was focused in front of them.

Heh. I have gotten really tired of seeing that stat (usually quoted as 90%, I don't know which is correct) used to try to make it look like the guy who got shot down had no idea there was an enemy around and was just flying along nice an level on cruise.

All the stat says is that the guys didn't see who shot him down.  It gives absolutely no context as to what he was doing at the time.