Author Topic: Mg-ff  (Read 424 times)

Offline Elfie

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Mg-ff
« on: October 07, 2004, 03:50:12 PM »
Why does this German cannon do so little damage in AH? Example: Last night while tnb with a spitv in a 109e I landed numerous cannon hits, then someone else comes by explodes the spit, and I get an assist? (I wasnt firing the machine guns, just the cannons)
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Mg-ff
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2004, 04:47:54 PM »
Because the mg-ff doesn't fire an explosive round, only a slug. A word to the wise... don't take mg-ff's.

Offline Wotan

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Mg-ff
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2004, 05:19:36 PM »
Because it would appear AH gun lethality is more dependent on velocity at impact then chemical energy.

Beyond  240 yards the MGFF (type 99 mk 1 as well) loses a large amount of lethality. Which at least to me would seem incorrect in that its chemical / explosive content doesn't change as it moves down range. All it needs is enough velocity to penetrate the aircraft skin.

With most non HE / Mine rounds their destructive energy is linked to kinetic energy which is "used up" as it travels downrange . With MGFF/M and HE / Mine rounds in general their destructive energy is stored chemically so it's retains most of its lethality as it travels downrange.

To be honest though not every round in the belt was a M-Geschoss (mine) round. I know AH doesn't model "belting" and uses some sort of "hybrid" fomula.

The MGFF with its low muzzle velocity made it harder to hit with (long flight time, more drop etc...) when comparing it to say a .50 cal or hispano. They way you defeat this is just to get inclose where you can't miss. This is totally separate from losing lethality down range.

 Unfortunately in the AH main where the 109E-4 (110C-4/b; atleast the C-4 has plenty of mgff :p) fights a mostly late war plane set your ability to get inside 240yrds is limited and as such your when you do have an opportunity to land hits the mgff just isnt lethal enough (in general) to get the kill.

When you fight the Hurri 1 or spit 1 its "lethal" enough to make the fight fun. In the main I always found it to frustration.

 Its the same with the a6m2. When facing faster, sturdy aircraft like USN planes at times it gets more then frustrating.

The mgff on the A-5 just adds more weight for little benefit in lethality. You are better off just taking the 2 inboard mg151/20mm.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2004, 05:22:32 PM by Wotan »

Offline AKFokerFoder+

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Mg-ff
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2004, 06:01:54 PM »
I find the MG151/20mm to be quite effective.

I took the wing off a Yak last night with a D400 snapshot, I am not sure who was more suprised, the Yak or me.  :D

But the the 151 does seem to pack a punch :)

Offline Elfie

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Mg-ff
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2004, 06:14:16 PM »
The MG151/20mm has 200 meter/sec MORE muzzle velocity also.


Quote
Beyond 240 yards the MGFF (type 99 mk 1 as well) loses a large amount of lethality. Which at least to me would seem incorrect in that its chemical / explosive content doesn't change as it moves down range. All it needs is enough velocity to penetrate the aircraft skin.


Thats why I wonder about the lethality of the MG-FF. 15 - 20 cannon hits *should* knock down just about anything except a heavy bomber. Btw, I was inside 200 yards when I was pounding that spitV with cannons.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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Mg-ff
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2004, 06:21:32 PM »
http://www.bf109.com/armament.html

Quote
Because the mg-ff doesn't fire an explosive round, only a slug. A word to the wise... don't take mg-ff's.


1) In a 109E you have no choice on cannon type.

2) According to that link the projectile for the MG-FF was a HE/T (High Explosive/Tracer) and had the same weight as the projectile from the MG151/20 which would indicate at least similar destructive power from the explosion when the round impacted.

This only makes the MG-FF seem horribly undermodeled. In fact it seems like the Browning .50 does more damage than the MG-FF, although I admit appearances can be decieving ;)
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline save

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Mg-ff
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2004, 08:37:57 AM »
"15 - 20 cannon hits "

I say IRL at most3 20mm hitsand its goodbye .

mg ff IF hit does awful amount of damage.


IN WB we have the minengeschoss
(HE) for 20mm and 30mm german planes.

A small number of 20mm hits is a "showstopper"  for all fighterplanes.

20mm hispano has long range touching AP bullets modelled in WB.

OTOH WB have distance shown only at d5 or less.

Can you say LESS HO !!!
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Offline Wotan

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Mg-ff
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2004, 09:58:05 AM »
Folks have read AGW and the MGFF threads over there. Some of us even played WBs.

 IIRC they were just as bad in WBs as here. I read where Target said the MGFF were "fixed" but I haven’t tried WBs in a long while. Do they still play lethality and buff tuff roulette?

Here's the most recent thread (dated 09-30-2004)

http://agw.bombs-away.net/showthread.php?t=37126

I could link others but it looks as if WBs has the same issues as AH in that rounds that rely of chemical energy disproportionately loose lethality down range.

I could be wrong but I have no interest in downloading WBs just to see.

The only 2 games I have played that seem to have gotten them right is FB/AEP and wwiiol. But wwiiol has issues with the HE blast a while back.

edit:
In AH the icons in the main show at a distance of D6 (6000yrds) with range changing at 1k intervals until you get inside d1 (1000 yards) then range changes at 200 yard intervals. The icon is also under the aircraft.  So if you are pulling lead and the icon drops below the nose it dissappears even if you still see the plane.

In the CT I believe they set icons to 3k but they may have changed it.

The only issue I have with the AH2 icons is they are huge but adjustable and the stupid +/- closure indicators that was whined into the game.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:03:45 AM by Wotan »

Offline Flyboy

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Mg-ff
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2004, 11:26:08 AM »
is the Mk99 (the A6m2 cannon) the same as the Mgff?
if so something is way wrong here.

i just took the a6m2 for a ride in the MA.
i take off and surprise suprise... a la7 dive on me.

to make it short i spend the next 10minutes or so trying to bait the la7 to fight me, and then we does his mistake i deliver a good burst of 20mms (i only fired the cannons) from point blank... the distance counter showed zero. score atleast 7 hits if not more and at this point i stop firing because i am sure there is no way  the la7 is going to fly awey and wait for the half second lag to show the results.

to my amazement the la7 fly awey with only a fuel leak
:eek:

man i was pissed.. i empy all my 20mm ammo in too him but allas he is too far now at around 300-400 yards... i allso fire the MGs and score some hits but the La7 just keep flying...and running awey.

after a few minutes i got the kill on him, probably one of the MGs gave him a pilot wound or something.

very frustrating

Offline Wotan

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Mg-ff
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2004, 12:00:27 PM »
They arent exactly the same but both are based on the same design.

Try shooting down an F4f, sbd or Fm2 in one. Unless you know where to aim you wont even tickle them.

Go try the 109E-4 you will get similair results.

Offline Karnak

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Mg-ff
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2004, 12:39:12 PM »
The La-7 is not a good test model.

In AH1 I once had a fight vs an La-7 when I was flying a Typhoon and I hit it 12 times over the course of the fight (I counted the flashes) and did absolutely no damage to it.  The Typhoon is armed with the mighty Hispano Mk II.
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