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Author Topic: Weapon experts, question for you  (Read 1932 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Weapon experts, question for you
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2004, 05:47:17 AM »
Nice of sholtzie to posts pics of a/c surfaces that were perpendicular to the object that hit the surface.:rolleyes: :eek: :lol
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2004, 06:17:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Of course but they also slow down more rapidly despite high initial velocity and their ballistic behavior is also different when compared to ground firing because of the transonic effects which are worse for lighter projectiles. 400 meters of firing distance is not the same when firing on the ground than firing in the air. AFAIK of course. I may be wrong.

-C+


Transonic effects? A .50 cal projectile is supersonic by a pretty wide margin. Mach 2.6+ in fact. Also the higher the altitude the thinner the air and the less air resistance.

To put it bluntly: A 9mm pistol round will penetrate aircraft skin at any angle, and I would bet money on it still penetrating at 100 yards at any angle.
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2004, 06:25:29 AM »
If you haven't already seen this weapons test:

http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/wing-test.wmv

.30 cal, .50 cal and 20mm test firing against a simulated wing profile of 0.05 inch thickness. IIRC some of the shots were at pretty low angles.
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2004, 06:30:00 AM »
I have seen that.

Who to believe:

"Real world WWII testing showed that at flat angles of impact (0 -> 3 degrees on average) little actual damage would be done, even to thin aluminium wings, fuselage and tail surfaces. Real world WWII testing determined as high as 90% total ineffectiveness of such bullet strikes. " by DoC.

Would be interesting to test, though...

-C+
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2004, 06:36:42 AM »
Quote
400 meters of firing distance is not the same when firing on the ground than firing in the air. AFAIK of course. I may be wrong.


Pretty sure your correct on this, Charge.

Quote
To put it bluntly: A 9mm pistol round will penetrate aircraft skin at any angle, and I would bet money on it still penetrating at 100 yards at any angle.


Yeah I would put my money on it penetrating at even greater distances.

Quote
Thanks guys, in summary it looks like yes ammo does deflect but it is the exception - not the rule - and certainly not the basis for a 90% degradation in weapons effectiveness.


I think it is definately the exception and not the rule.
Not claiming I know for sure.  I think Tony has the right idea for testing this with the straight rod.

From my experience I think what the pilots are seeing are richochet's off hardenend structures in the airframe.  Armour, engine, and other solid components will cause richochet's.  
Even the pilots body will cause them as the bullets strike bone and exit.  Know a guy who got hit with a .50cal bullet in the hip.  It "deflected" and exited the top of his skull.

Crumpp
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2004, 06:37:01 AM »
There is quite a leap from "little actual damage would be done" to "bullets ricocheting of aircraft skin".
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2004, 06:46:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Even the pilots body will cause them as the bullets strike bone and exit.  Know a guy who got hit with a .50cal bullet in the hip.  It "deflected" and exited the top of his skull.


That has more to do with the bullet being upset and skewing its path trough the dense matter of his body. An upset bullet will do the same in air, but since the density of air is so much less the turn radius is much greater. The Russian 5.45 round is notorious for its ability to rapidly change course in a human body after only travelling an inch, much more so than the 5.56mm N. The Russian round does not fragment like the 5.56mm though, so damage is less overall. I think we can safely say that a human bone does not "deflect" .50 cal rounds ;) ... They can however upset the balance of the bullet.
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2004, 06:53:34 AM »
Yes, that is true but the upset flight path can be radically different from the original and in that sense it resembles the effect of a ricochet. Even a heavier 7.62 rifle bullet may change its direction quite a bit if it hits a branch, or as well it may not. It depends.

-C+
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2004, 07:05:41 AM »
Yes Charge, but the change in direction is not instant (like a ricochet), the change in direction is the effect of the bullet itself being twisted off course and thereby acting as a aerodynamic profile literally turning like a wing in flight. The bullet will stay on the same course (or very close to the same course) for quite some distance before there's any noticeable change in vector.
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2004, 07:17:15 AM »
Yes, that is my observation too and it explains why the bullet may hit the hip and come out from the head as the disturbed bullet does not fly in the air but in a thicker matter so the aerodynamical disturbance has a more radical effect in thicker matter ie. body matter. The situation would be same in water I guess..and more easily observed too...

-C+
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2004, 07:19:19 AM »
cc
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storch

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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2004, 07:41:23 AM »
I just received a reply from Paul at Fantasy of Flight.  He states that the damage I saw on the wings and fuselage were likely to be attributed to vandalism and not .50 cal projectiles.  I still maintain the opinion that they are consistent with my own vast experience at shooting sheet metal from all angles.  The skin on the Tony is .040.
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2004, 07:45:14 AM »
What kind of sheet metal, and what thickness?
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storch

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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2004, 07:47:29 AM »
I often hunt in heavy brush.  I usually take a .35 Reminton or a shotgun for this type of boar hunt.   the reason being is that more than once I've had 30.06 rounds deflected by palmetto leaves.
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storch

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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2004, 07:53:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
What kind of sheet metal, and what thickness?


Anything from refridgerators to abandoned cars to beer cans.  I would guess aluminum and A36 mild steel would be the most common.  certainly nothing thicker than 18 ga. which is .047  How thick is a beer can?
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