Stuka Tank Buster for the planeset

[MOSQ]

I don't think the Stuka is any threat to the ground war, or very often Tigers. Why? Because Tigers are used 90% of the time to Defend a base. No one is going to fly the Stuka to an enemy base to attack a Tiger, for the same reason you almost never see an IL2 attacking an enemy base. It takes too long to get there, and you are an easy kill all the way there and back.

Second, if the Tiger is attacking an enemy base, which is relatively rare, the Stuka can now up with the bunker buster bomb and blow a Tiger to bits. How often does that happen? Very rarely.  Most Dweebs up a Lancaster Formation and take out an entire platoon of GVs in one pass at 1K alt.

If a Tiger is at an enemy base, he will probably have an Osty with him if he has any brains at all. The Osty will easily deal with the Stuka long before the Stuka can get a shot at the Tiger.  

It's not going to be the death of the ground war, and does not need to be perked! However it will be a great boon to the Special Events arena, and an easily added plane to the MA.

[GRUNHERZ]

Bombs are much harder to aim than cannon.

To drop a bomb you have to climb.  This takes a long time in a Stuka.

If yiu miss, which is very likely, then yiu have to do over and over. Which takes forever.  A cannon stuka has none of these problems...

A 37mm Stuka can just fly up to the side of a tiger and blow it away  every time.

[RTSigma]

Honestly, a majority of the pilots of the MA, no offense to them, don't have excellent aim. They will approach a GV at any angle or direction and fire shots into it. With 12 rounds, you don't have many chances to attack. Even then you're still vulernable.


As with the bomber formations, you get a gunner in there, you're pretty much a giant threat to GVs, its not that hard to aim bombs against them.

Besides, this would give the use of planes that people never really thought about, even if it is a tank buster Ju87, it still a Ju87

[Purzel]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
An ostwind doesnt go hunting a Tempest.

A Tempest has a decent chance of killing an ostie.

A Tiger has no serious chance of killing the Ju87G.

So its a poor argument you brought up.

If Pyro's stement about the mossies and the bombers holds true the same thing logically applies to the Ju87G.

There are guns to kill tigers, several and a new one is coming in the next version.

The problem wityh Ju87 is that you could consostatly  kill tigers (and all other perk tanks) in one shot and there is nothing they can do about it.

No, the Ostwind waits for the Tempest (just like for any other plane)

The Tiger has a chance as good on killing a bomber as it has on killing the stuka. The stuka has to come straight at the tiger, and be about D200 when firing.

Whats the problem about having a slow plane that has only one option to archieve anything (killing Gvs, not good for anything else) but needs to have certain constraints satisfied (Air Cover).

I dont see why a slow plane with 12 shots (2 rounds per shot) can be unbalancing. Right now a Tiger has to fear almost nothing.

The Stuka is slow, big, and has only 24 Bullets. It has to go directly at the target and get close.

Any fighter, ostie, M16 neaby and its toast. Its not a big threat, its just one plane that has a chance of killing a tiger with jsut 1 or 2 hits. And thats everything it can archieve.

It has one advantage over every other plane in the game (can kill any GV with one shot). But the disadvantages (slow, big, has to get close) set this off i guess.

But, I'd say lets try it. We can perk the plane afterwards if it really has such an impact.

With the Me262 that worked.

[Kweassa]

That is simply untrue. Hurri-2D, IL-2, Panzer IV.. all have guns that can hurt a Tiger.

Pretty much every USAAF plane can kill a Tiger, albiet with a rocket or bomb, as can the Typhoon, Spit, Niki.. the list goes on and on.

 Urchin, you have to consider the fact that those 'other planes' need a pilot - a very experienced one - in it to do any real threat to tanks.

 Most people are absolutely horrible in dumping bombs/rockets at low altitudes. I'm sure every one of us has the fun experience of sitting in a damaged tank, doing nothing, and racking up humongous number of kills because all the would-be tank buster pilots just auger all around you.

 You consider yourself a good Hurri2D pilot, able to plan an approach and aim the correct spot on a tank to destroy it. But really, how many average pilots in the MA can do that? They won't be 'average' if they can do that.

Second, if the Tiger is attacking an enemy base, which is relatively rare, the Stuka can now up with the bunker buster bomb and blow a Tiger to bits. How often does that happen? Very rarely. Most Dweebs up a Lancaster Formation and take out an entire platoon of GVs in one pass at 1K alt.

 Ironically Mosq, the point you brought up exactly justifies mine.

 Why don't more people use the 1800kg monster bomb to kill tanks when its so powerful and effective?

 Because, it takes time to get upto alt. If you sacrifice alt and try dump it at low alts then the accuracy suffers. Like I said the average level of players wouldn't be able to land a bomb inside an area the size of a football field, if they are executing the low-alt, shallow angle bombing.

 So, since they lack in skills, they can't use a Hurri2D or IL-2 to do the precision strafing, nor can they use other fighter bombers to any success, since they can't launch rockets or lob bombs neither. So they take off in Lancs, do the low alt carpet bombing - because its the only way they can hit anything. They need all those 42x1000lbs to kill a single tank!

 Now here comes a free G Stuka. Take off from field. You don't need much alt, you don't need to consider the approach angle or speed, you don't even have to aim a certain spot. Fly, fire, and boom! Tank destroyed.

 
 A free Ju87G is the end of GV battles as we know it. It'll revert to the old AH days of Osty hordes. Consequentially, as nobody uses any kind of tank anymore, the G Stuka will lose its place as the tank buster, and remain a hangar queen. It'll follow the path of extinction it caused on the tanks.
 
 A Ju87G, in the MA, should be something that players consciously choose despite the risk, to carefully counter Tigers if there are some around, not a free choice.

 Tempests and 262s are perked because they are unbalancingly powerful in the job they do. Nobody complains 'you need to fly timid to survive in the Temp' or 'its not easy to shoot something with the 30mms'. The speed they fly is what got them perked.

 Same with the Ju87G. Again, it don't matter how easy even a SpitI can shoot it down. The only thing that concerns this issue is how much absolutely better that thing can kill tanks, considered to the current tools of the trade.

 100mm armour penetration from all angles? Definately perk material.

[Pongo]

I think a good case has been made that it would have to be perked.

[MOSQ]

Kweassa,

The Stuka Tank Buster will not be anywhere near as "unbalancing" to GVs as a formation of Lancasters at 1K currently is.

Should we perk Lancasters that drop bombs below 5,000 feet?

That's a rhetorical question, I really don't want this thread hijacked into another discussion on the problems of dive bombing and low level bomber formations. It was just food for thought.

I still think the Stuka would be just another interesting option for attacking GVs. But it's not worth perking. If it turns out you are correct, then HTC can add a perk price to it.

[tce2506]

If you hide your tiger under the trees like a smart person, By the time that slow '87 gets close enough to a tiger to shoot, he'll be eating an 88mm round in the canopy. No need to perk it.

[Kweassa]

If you hide your tiger under the trees like a smart person, By the time that slow '87 gets close enough to a tiger to shoot, he'll be eating an 88mm round in the canopy. No need to perk it.

'If you keep your SA sharp and start maneuvering quickly like a smart person, By the time that massive 262 gets close enough to shoot 30mms, you'll' already have maneuvered out of the way long time ago. No need to perk it.'

The Stuka Tank Buster will not be anywhere near as "unbalancing" to GVs as a formation of Lancasters at 1K currently is.

Should we perk Lancasters that drop bombs below 5,000 feet?

That's a rhetorical question, I really don't want this thread hijacked into another discussion on the problems of dive bombing and low level bomber formations. It was just food for thought.

I still think the Stuka would be just another interesting option for attacking GVs. But it's not worth perking. If it turns out you are correct, then HTC can add a perk price to it.

 Lancasters at low alt deck bomb runs is a totally separate issue to be discussed. Lanc formations taking off and immediately trying to bomb stuff at 500 feet, using F3 externals to release bombs without calibration, should be something fixed not because its a threat to specifically GVs, but because it is an exploit of the general system. It is pretty much irrelevant, even as a rhetoric.


 However I'd hardly call 5000 feet 'deck'. If the Lancs actually climb to 5000 feet with a formation to kill one tank, that's a significant lot of time to take for one target. The efficiency of this lumbering behemoth used as a tank buster just cannot be compared with a Ju87G.

 If its free its not an interesting 'option'.  It's the 'only option' for killing tanks.

 Why up a Hurri2D or IL-2, which has about the same difficulties in trying to aim and strafe a tank, but is greatly reduced in its effectivity to damage/destroy tanks according to angle, speed and hitting spot, when a Ju87G will always penetrate and kill a tank with one shot?  

 An average IL-2 or Hurri2D pilot won't be able to hurt a tank even if he crashes into it guns blazing, if he doesn't have the correct angle, and aims for the correct spot.

 An average Ju87G pilot will kill a tank if he crashes into it guns blazing, as long as he gets one hit anywhere anyangle anyspeed.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kweassa
An average Ju87G pilot will kill a tank if he crashes into it guns blazing, as long as he gets one hit anywhere anyangle anyspeed.

Be fair.  The Ju87G's BK37 cannon aren't that good.  They could penetrate (could, not would) 140mm of armor, striking at a 90° angle and from a range of only 100m.  I wonder how fast that penetration falls off as the range increases?

Now that would be very easy for anybody even remotely competent at AH to disable a tank with simply by shotting the deck in a reasonabley steep dive.  Still, diving at the front armor of the Tiger would produce an angle that would stop the round from penetrating.  The sides and rear would be much more vulnerable.

The T-34 and Panzer IV H would both be easily disabled and that brings up another point.  Why would the Ju87G be a killer and not a disabler?  I see no reason to expect that it would be any more successful at actually getting the credit for killing a tank than the Hurri IID is.


All that said, I still think it's effect on perk tanks, barring something silly and stupid like the Maus,would be too great for it to be uncontroled.  It would need a small, F4U-1C like, perk price.

[Urchin]

I'm gonna have to reiterate my question... have any of you guys bemoaning the fact that the Stuka's 37mm guns are "uber" and can slice through any tank like butter ever tried the Hurri-2D?

You get one shot per pass.  While it isn't exactly hard to hit, it isn't exactly childs play either.  The round actually has to hit, just landing close isn't good enough.  I strongly suspect that the Stuka would be the same way.. most people simply wouldn't be willing to take the time how to use the plane.  The IL-2 is much easier to use, and it can knock out a Tiger as well.  Plus, it isn't a helpless target against a fighter, it actually stands a chance provided the enemy fighter doesn't know how to fight very well.  With the Hurri-2D (and the Stuka, once we get it), you are screwed even if the guy is on his first sortie in AH.

[Tails]

And before someone mentions that people could just spray a whole clip on one target (again), let me bring up that the Hurri-2D, with it's wing mounted 40's, noses down considerably every time the cannons fire. the Stuka-G, with cannons mounted in pods below the CG, would produce even more of a nose-down effect. Spraying doesnt work with these things.

[Pongo]

No the guns really are far better then the s gun and the Stuka is way more controlable in a dive then the Huricane.

The s guns on a hurican are not in wing. they are in pods. Not as far below the wing but pods.

The Stuka without ack to worry about or fighters to bug it would kill tigers pretty easy. As easy as the tiger kills Panzers.
It should be perked if introduced.

[OOZ662]

If added, the JU-87 might have a bunch of good sides to it.

Fearing those big cannons, you wouldn't see those 2k bombers that drop in a dive and then start dogfighting with the enemy planes as often. They'd actually have to learn how to level bomb in a bomber. Pyro can't say that this takes away from the game because if you want to dive, there's all them dive bombers. If you want to level bomb, got up 15-20k and drop from way up there. Nobody in their right mind will sit there and take a Stuka up to 15-20k to lob 12 shots at a bomber formation, but they will use it to take popshots at the dive-drop-dogfight Lancasters and B17s.

The Junkers would also mean the end of a base being captured by five guys in Tigers and an ostie because their bud came in and busted up the ord.

Tigers might actually wait for air support before driving into the open. This does NOT mean they can't go to the base without air cover. Hop in the trees and sneak, buddy!

If you're worth two cents as a tank driver, when you see a stuka coming at you, you turn yer tank.

[Karnak]

OOZ662,

Um, the Ju87G would be no threat at all to bombers.  The guns may be large, but they are firing AP ammo and have only 12 rounds each.  The Bf110G-2, Fw190A-8, Mosquito, Typhoon or N1K2-J all have much more firepower when it comes to hurting airplanes.  Look at the hurricane Mk IID, it is armed with two 40mm cannon with 16 rounds each and is faster than the Ju87G.  How many of those do you see attacking bombers?