No (more) guns please - we're British

[beet1e]

Everyone - the picture in the newspaper is not an "ad", and is certainly not a "racist ad". The people depicted in it are those who were actually the victims of a gun, and not just randomly selected faces. But yes, most of them are from ethnic minorities, and ethnic minorities are drawn to large urban areas or cities, and not places like Whitby/Pickering. Crime/drugs/guns are much more prevalent in the poorer parts of our big cities, so the fact that there so many non Caucasians amongst the victims is not a coincidence.

Originally posted by lazs2
Beet... are you saying that the criminals are not shooting more people because.... because they can't get guns?  I would contend that they can get all the guns they want despite your laws but.... that the penalties for using guns are high in your country so only the most desperate use them...

Yes, that's pretty much it. There is a mandatory five year jail sentence for possession of a gun. If it were easier for criminals to get their hands on guns like the ones in your big green safe, I am convinced we would have many more gun homicides. I've said that all along. The fact is that criminals are thwarted in their attempts to get guns because even the law abiding don't have them and therefore there are none to steal, and none for "law abiding" people to sell on the black market at a huge profit. Also, various amnesties have removed tens of thousands of guns from circulation.  So it's difficult for criminals to get guns, but certainly not impossible. The fact that there are no retail outlets for handguns (and the penalties for possession) explain why there are relatively few handguns in circulation.

Now here's one for you: How could a 14 year old girl have defended herself when walking home from a fun fair? Are you suggesting that things would have been different if she had had a gun? Do you believe in arming 14 year olds with handguns? Is that allowed where you live? If that were allowed, chances are she'd get mugged for it. People have been mugged/killed for far less - Rolex watches and mobile phones, for example.

[john9001]

that story is fake , it can't be true, there are no guns in england, the govt baned guns a long time ago.

[lazs2]

maverick.... thank you again for stateing the obvious..  I edon't beleive 76% of people are too dumb to own firearms... I am probly pretty dumb myself... certainly I am not one of the top 25% elite.

Beet... thanks for proving my point... Obviously the 5 year sentance is a lot more thought provolking to the criminal than the fact that getting guns in england may cast twice as much than it would say... here.   big deal... even if it cost $1000 for a gun that is nothing to a criminal.  It is the penalty for using it that is the deterent.

I am not against deterents for using a gun in a crime... only against penalties for law abiding citizens owning firearms.

lazs

[midnight Target]

The only thing racist about that article is assuming the color of their skin has anything to do it.

[wrag]

"The generality of men are naturally apt to be swayed by fear
rather than reverence, and to refrain from evil rather because
of the punishment that it brings than because of its own
foulness."
Aristotle (384-322 bc)
Greek philosopher


"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking
others to live as one wishes to live."  Oscar Wilde Anglo-
Irish author.


"I think that the sacredness of human life is a purely
municipal ideal of no validity outside the jurisdiction. I
believe that force, mitigated as far as may be by good
manners, is the ultimate ratio, and between two groups of men
that want to make inconsistent kinds of world I see no remedy
except force . . . It seems to me that every society rests on
the death of men."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935)
American jurist

[FUNKED1]

I'm shocked that most of the victims appear to be black.  Yeah, blame it on the guns.

[Curval]

Originally posted by midnight Target
The only thing racist about that article is assuming the color of their skin has anything to do it.

Well said!

[FUNKED1]

BTW Beetle your article only serves to support our contention that gun control laws don't work.

[FUNKED1]

Originally posted by beet1e
So there it is. The more guns we have, the more crime we'll see. It really is that simple.

There's a word you need to look up in the dictionary.  It's called "causality".

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
Beet... thanks for proving my point... Obviously the 5 year sentance is a lot more thought provolking to the criminal than the fact that getting guns in england may cast twice as much than it would say... here.   big deal... even if it cost $1000 for a gun that is nothing to a criminal.  It is the penalty for using it that is the deterent.

Well, yes and no. Hopefully the 5 year sentence is a deterrent to people thinking of acquiring a gun. The penalties for using it would be much greater, especially if people were shot and injured or killed. But people are shot and killed, and that shows they're not deterred by the 5 year jail sentence for possession, or even a life sentence for murder. I don't know what drives such people, other than the possibility that their minds are so fried by drugs that they don't know what they're doing.

I know you'd like to live in a society where only the law abiding had guns, and where they were out of the reach of criminals. Anyone who believes that such a scenario is possible is living in a fool's paradise.

Footnote on the 14 year old girl shot and killed in Nottingham: A 20 year old man has been charged with her murder, and two others are in custody.

Lazs, you never answered my earlier questions about whether 14 year olds should be armed when they attend funfairs.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by FUNKED1
BTW Beetle your article only serves to support our contention that gun control laws don't work.

You're wrong. They do work. But like any other law you care to mention, they do not work perfectly. Just look at your immigration laws, for example. What are you advocating?  A repeal of all laws that do not work 100% perfectly? Your country would be back to the days of the Wild West...

[Zippatuh]

Originally posted by midnight Target
The only thing racist about that article is assuming the color of their skin has anything to do it.

True... it's mostly poor depressed neighborhoods; which is where minorities happen to live.  Poor does not necessarily mean only a minority either.

The number of gun deaths in the states is high; granted.  However, I beleive the urban/suburban/rural statistcis would be close.  Most of the gun violence and deaths occur between minorities and in poor or depressed areas.

[lazs2]

sorry beet... I thought I did answer your question about the 14 year old...

I answered it with another question.   Mt question was... would you feel more secure or less secure if I were armed.

To make it simpler.... would you feel more secure or less secure for you and your niece if I were carrying concealed at your fair?   How bout if maybe 5% of the law abiding citizens attending the fair were?   How bout if the criminals knew that 5% of the citizens there were?

I agree that harsh penalties will not deter the most vicious and ruthless of criminals.... fortunately they are a very small minority even as criminals go but.... not only do harsh penalties not deter them but.... as you can see.... making it a tiny bit harder for them to aquire a firearm doesn't seem to stop em either.    Only a bullet will stop most of em.

lazs

[Elfie]

The fact is that criminals are thwarted in their attempts to get guns because even the law abiding don't have them and therefore there are none to steal, and none for "law abiding" people to sell on the black market at a huge profit.

If a person sells a gun on the black market they are not law abiding.

Lazs, you never answered my earlier questions about whether 14 year olds should be armed when they attend funfairs

That statement is pretty rediculous, children should not carry weapons, I think we all know that already.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
To make it simpler.... would you feel more secure or less secure for you and your niece if I were carrying concealed at your fair?   How bout if maybe 5% of the law abiding citizens attending the fair were?   How bout if the criminals knew that 5% of the citizens there were?

What needs to be remembered is that if you or any other guy (5% of the guys at the fair) had access to weapons, it follows that said weapons are freely available - available for the law abiding to buy, available for the criminals to steal. You could be mugged for your gun. Don't say it couldn't happen. Even in your country, the staff in prisons are not allowed to be carrying their guns in certain parts of those prisons for that very reason. Short answer: I would feel less secure. So would many others. That's why many folks on this BBS would agree that their chances of being shot in the US are much higher than for being shot in their home countries.  

If a person sells a gun on the black market they are not law abiding.

That's why I put it in quotes.