Author Topic: Analysis of Aircraft Guns  (Read 4021 times)

Offline Tony Williams

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Analysis of Aircraft Guns
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2003, 07:48:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
I would like to answer this one to test my own knowledge. I might screw this up, Tony please correct my mistakes.
 


Nothing I disagree with there, but I would add a point. The MG 131 was very low-powered for an HMG because it was intended as a direct replacement for the 7.92mm guns. It therefore had to be small enough to fit where the 7.92mms would fit, so could only fire a small, low-powered cartridge. The gun weighed little more than half the weight of a .50 M2, so it was really an 'intermediate' weapon between the rifle-calibre and .50 guns.

You can compare the ammo by looking at the 'Ammunition Photo Gallery' on my website. In this photo of HMG cartridges: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/HMG1.jpg
the 13x64B is the smallest cartridge, third from the right. Second from the right is the 15mm MG 151. The .50 (12.7x99) round is second from the left.

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Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2003, 08:00:10 PM »
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Originally posted by scJazz
Tony your point about 3 MK108s weighing as much as 6 .50s is noted. However in almost no cases were highly produced aircraft fitted with 3 MK108s.


I know, I was comparing the guns rather than specific aircraft fits. The only single-engined fighters I can think of offhand which had three MK 108 were some of the last anti-bomber Bf 109s (they also had a pair of MG 131's of course).

Quote
For less weight and probably even less volume the ME 262 could have been fitted with 12 MG 131s. In a nose mounted arrangement with no convergence problems this would have been devestating! Longer ranged and faster slugs would have made the odds of actually landing a hit extremely probable. Roughly 6 MG151s could have also been used and this would have worked out almost as well. Considering LW design concepts it would have been the most likely choice besides the MG131. However I don't think it would have been as effective.


The German experience was that large numbers of small shells were not as effective as one big shell of the same weight; what usually mattered in bringing down an aircraft was the concentration of damage at one point, rather than scattering lots of hits all over the aircraft.

Of course, the Germans became obsessive about knocking down heavy bombers, and their armament was increasingly biased towards this. As you say, for the same weight as four MK 108 they could have had six MG 151s, which would have been much better against fighters because of the higher hit probability, couple with the fact that 20mm shells were generally powerful enough to do the job. I don't think that a battery of MG 131s would have been as good; the ballistics were worse, the little shells contained very little HE and the AP versions didn't have much penetration either.

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Offline Furious

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« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2003, 08:10:39 PM »
Tony,

What purpose does the blunt nose on some of those rounds serve?

Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2003, 02:03:32 AM »
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Originally posted by Furious
Tony,

What purpose does the blunt nose on some of those rounds serve?


Those were the HE shells. They were parallel-sided as much as possible in order to maximise the HE capacity, and the fuze was blunt to ensure that it was ignited on impact, rather than just glancing off.

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Offline scJazz

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« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2003, 08:19:35 AM »
I'd disagree about the 12 MG131s. The ballistics are quite reasonable out to say 500 yards. 12 mounted within what 4 square feet on the nose would unload one hell of a lethal stream. No longer looking at the normal couple of hits from MG fire. Now some chunk of aircraft is going to get perforated badly!

Offline Zanth

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« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2003, 10:30:46 AM »
Does someone still have that color picture of all the ammo rounds lined up in a row?

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2003, 11:38:45 AM »
Zanth, Tony posted the link a few posts ago

Offline Pei

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« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2003, 06:07:55 PM »
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Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2003, 01:55:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
I'd disagree about the 12 MG131s. The ballistics are quite reasonable out to say 500 yards. 12 mounted within what 4 square feet on the nose would unload one hell of a lethal stream. No longer looking at the normal couple of hits from MG fire. Now some chunk of aircraft is going to get perforated badly!


You could use the same argument in favour of the 12 x .303 armament of the Hurri IIb and early Typhoon, in that anything caught in the fire at the harmonisation range should have been shredded (14,000+ rpm!). However, it was considered ineffective compared with cannon.

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Offline scJazz

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« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2003, 08:19:06 AM »
They were using .303 spitwads. They were wing mounted. They are hideously short range. They have really pathetic ballistics. No I'm not making the same point.

12 nose mounted Heavy MGs would have done the trick. Too bad we can't do quick mods on aircraft. Would be great to test it out in AH.

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2003, 08:34:58 AM »
The MG151/20 was probably the best weapon the Germans fielded in WWII. Good ballistics and hitting power. For the weight of 6 .50 cals you could have between 4 and 5 MG151/20s. For 4 Hispano IIs you could have 5 MG151/20s.
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Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2003, 10:37:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
They were using .303 spitwads. They were wing mounted. They are hideously short range. They have really pathetic ballistics. No I'm not making the same point.


The point I was trying to make is that you need to balance quantity with quality. IMO the MG 131 was a fine replacement for a rifle-calibre gun where you couldn't fit anything bigger, but in destructive efficiency for a given armament weight it fell well short of an outfit of good 20mm cannon.

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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2004, 08:38:45 AM »
oops edit