This might help someone

[milnko]

Hey folks,

Couple of links for ya:
This 1st one had a DOT command file for AH, as well as some films, Saitek joystick config, and other misc.

The ASSASSIN Files

This second link is an ACM page, covers most of the moving of your A/C around the sky, includes detailed directions on the most common manuvers, with some Realmedia clips demonstrating the move.

The ASSASSIN ACM page

Hope it helps

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<< MILENKO >>

<===THE ASSASSINS===>Webpage
Original ASSASSINS webpage

[hblair]

a definite help for green guys. Spend 30 minutes or so reading these files that milenko has put together, and you will have a basic knowledge of ACM, and how important it is.

[Andy Bush]

A note of caution here...

Thanks much to Milenko for the enthusiasm.

However, the material appears to be taken from the Janes series of sims (FA and USAF in particular). This info is poorly written and technically incorrect in a number of places.

The main problem with real world BFM discussions for a sim reader is that the discussions seldom present how the maneuver should look when using the typical sim viewing choices (padlock, snap, and external views). That being the case, the sim pilot has a difficult time in understanding the reason for the maneuver and learning the overall 3D SA required to fly these maneuvers properly.

So...while this info may provide a 'basic' feel for the subject of BFM, please do not 'take it to the bank'. Look for other and better reference sources...they are readily available on-line and in print.

Andy

[hblair]

Link us to some other and better material then.  

[milnko]

Yes feel free to post your ACM links.

Also the material did not come from any JANE's game.

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CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!!

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[Andy Bush]

Sure thing!
 http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/air_combat.shtml

In sim manuals, the Prima Strategy Guide for Falcon4 by Pete Bonanni is the best ever written. The manual for F/A-18 Korea written by Dave Putze is also very good. Both are done by military pilots.

From what I've seen, most on-line sites tend to repeat the same info...most of which is real world-based. Unfortunately, what simmers really need is not to know what a High Yo-Yo is...they need to know how to fly it using the views available in their sim. Most on-line sites that purport to offer BFM tips and academic info, endlessly regurgitate the former and spend little to no time on the latter. Even the video that Milenko offers does little to explain how to fly a maneuver in a sim (unless you happen to want to fly in the external view...now who would want to do that?!!).

Andy

[Andy Bush]

Milenko

As I said, many thanks for your enthusiasm...but if you did not use the Janes manuals as a primary source, then that is the most amazing example of coincidence that I have ever seen.

Now, there's nothing wrong with using info from somewhere else...little new has been originated in basic BFM for many a year now.

My concern was not that you borrowed from another source...it was to point out that the source has misleading and technically incorrect info.

Which info is that?

These sections: AoT (aspect angle), pursuit curves, the energy fight, the angles fight, Barrel Roll Attack, Scissors, Spiral Dive, High Yo-Yo, and Low Yo-Yo.

What's wrong with them?

They read like they were written by someone who made a high speed pass thru Shaw's book and now considers himself an authority on the subject. I seriously doubt that the text was written by someone with a military A2A background...the language just isn't 'right'...it sounds amateurish.

So...good on you for taking the time to put up your site. It is a very nice looking site (I particulary enjoyed the songs and films!)...but when it comes to putting out academic material, be careful that your sources are authoritative.

Andy

[milnko]

As I said not JANE"S, but Microprose's 1942 PAW.

The page is NOT an end all ACM page but an fairly comprehensive intro to ACM. The language needs to remain simple, as most FlightSim Jocks do not have military A2A experience, and would have difficulty with the many acyronms and slangs.

Notice the ACM page doesn't even touch on the WingOver, Chandel, or Hammerhead nor is there mention of the engine torque issues, it isn't meant to replace going to the TA and using a human instructor, but is meant to give some beginning concepts.

Regardless of the amateurishness of the language, the concepts of energy management apply, as do how and when to apply/not apply the outlined manuvuers.
 
As that each cyberjock/Flight Sim uses it's own style of cycling thru views, and not all sims offer padlock, plus netlag being what it is, not to mention the variety of controllers and individual deadband and damping settings, it is impossible to say "using the back view, wait for bandit to be approx XXX distance before pulling vertical" or "when approaching head-on with a bandit wait till XXX distance to pull stick left and apply YYY amount of left rudder"
 
And as Shaw's book is considered the BIBLE on ACM, most ACM pages read like a high speed pass thru his book. As for being considered an authority on the subject, I'm far from that, I've read your profile and I'm sure with your military background, you are more an authority than I, although I'm quite sure WW2 prop driven aircraft are quite different in thrust-to-weight ratio than an F4, and as you were not available at the time of writing I did the best I could.
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CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!!

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[This message has been edited by milnko (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Milenko

Well then...who ever writes for MP is no better than the Janes people!! And the Janes writers are copycats!!

I guess I haven't been clear on this. I'm not taking issue with your language...it's the language used by the source that is the problem.

Again, I compliment you on your efforts to provide much needed help to newbies.

As you said, this is all about helping people. But bad info is worse than no info at all. A couple of examples..

AoT:  This term is used loosely as a substitute for aspect angle (AA). AA is an indication of your position relative to the target and is measured from the target's tail. AA increases as you go from the target's tail to its nose. AA is expressed in degrees, 0-180, and includes a 'right' or 'left' designation to indicate position off the target's wingline.

Therefore an AA near the target's nose will have a value approaching 180 degrees, not approaching zero as your page states. AA is not a big deal for WW2 sims, but it is very important when flying radar equipped modern fighters since radar contact and lock on data is often expressed as AA. In addition, improper AA is the root cause for a number of traditional BFM maneuvers (such as the Barrel Roll).

Lastly, your text states that 'weapons perform better when at low AoT'. This is misleading...weapons are dumb...they have no way of 'knowing' A0T. For WW2 sims, the gun attack is not more effective at low AoT...it is only more commonly attempted from that position. What you probably mean to say is that pilot proficiency allows more predictable aiming when at low AoT. This has some truth because of the generally lower line of sight rates (less lead required) and lower G (less pilot workload). From a technical point of view, the gun will have its greatest Pk when at a 90 degree AoT when firing from directly above the target at short range and at a constant line of sight rate. This results in a minimum gun dispersion, largest target relative size, and tends to make target armor ineffective.

High Yo-Yo:  The text says that the High Yo-Yo is begun when the pilot is 'stuck in lag pursuit'. This is a common error in many sim manuals and is absolutely false.

The High Yo-Yo is traditionally described as a primary remedy for excessive closure and has a secondary application as a solution for excessive AA. Thus the pilot is approaching his target too fast and too far to the inside of the turn...completely opposite the situation in lag pursuit.

Lag pursuit is usually thought of as a relatively high G turn to the outside of the target's turn radius. The attacker can match turn rate with G by flying at a higher speed than the target...but if he tries to slow down to also match turn radius, the target will out turn him.

Therefore, the situation is one where the attacker is flying at high G just to maintain position in lag. He has no more additional G to perform the yo-yo with. If he did, he would just as soon use it to pull his nose to the target. If the attacker rolls out of plane and yo-yo's off, the target will increase the attacker's AA and separation distance as well. This does not 'fix' the attacker's original position...it only makes it worse.

Here's the deal. Military pilots take years to learn this stuff..and while most may be able to fly BFM, few can instruct it worth a hoot. It is a very complex subject. That's why the services have schools such as the Navy's TOPGUN and the USAF's Fighter Weapons School to teach instructors how to teach BFM. I can honestly say that I didn't know squat about BFM until I went to the Weapons School...and this was after Vietnam, European, and stateside tours in the F-4 and F-104.

Andy

[milnko]

Thank you Andy, honestly.

If anything this thread will help cyberpilots just starting out, to better understand the complexities of ACM.

Many "newbies" wonder why it is that they just can't beat the other guy, never realizing that the other guy has literally years of practice.

The best part of Flight Sims is the ability to replane after the compression dive and learning that a ZEKE does not pull out at 450 mph.
Or talking to the "bandit" that just splashed him, and learning what he did wrong or more importantly what he did right.

I have 8 years in Naval Aviation as a jet engine mechanic, mainly on the GE TF-34 and I understand thrust, lift, drag, and pitch, however many don't.

I have enjoyed a lot of Air Combat Sims, starting way back in the mid 80's, so I'm not a newbie to Flight Sims or BFM terminology but even I had a hard time following your last post.

Therefore what I propose is to not require a "newbie" to have an aerospace engineering degree or to have completed TOPGUN school to understand basic ACM, instead I feel that using a common man's language of how the many concepts apply to make the whole would be of much greater help to the average Joe than using long technical terms.

I do plan to edit the page sometime in the future to include topics such as engine torque, (how it effects certain maneuvers) aircraft trimming and throttle control.

If you would like to edit our ACM page to make it more accurate and coherent, I would greatly appreciate the feedback and any help you may wish to offer.

Here is a list of some Flight Sims I've enjoyed:
F-15 Strike Eagle by Microprose
F-19 Stealth Fighter by Microprose
Gunship 2000 by Microprose
Birds of Prey
Falcon AT
Strike Commander by Origin
US Navy Fighters by Electronic Arts
1942 PAW by Microprose
F-22 by Novalogic
EF2000V2.0 by DiD
F-22 ADF by DiD
Jane's F-15
Jane's Fighters Anthology
MiG-29 by Novalogic
F-16 by Novalogic
Falcon 4.0 by Microprose
F/A-18 Korea by Graphic Simulations
Air Warrior3 by Kesami
Warbirds by ImagicOnline
Aces High by HiTech Creations

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CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!!

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Don't feel bad milenko- Andy's been doing this all his life- he probably knows more pure acedemic BFM and ACM knowledge than the rest of this board combined..  not many can say they helped reconstruct how the air force conducted BFM- but andy did with A-10's.

  On the other hand I am impatiently tapping my foot and hoping he writes his advanced ACM guide and addendum to Shaw's book before he dies and we lose ALL access to him <wink>

[Sorrow[S=A]]

BTW andy- your simHQ link is not working properly. I think it is simHQ's fault- they have terrible problems with accessing their pages. Any hope of a mirror?

[Rocket]

 

Military pilots take years to learn this stuff..and while most may be able to fly BFM, few can instruct it worth a hoot

This is why I stick as much as possible to the BFM and newbie help. I fly too much by the seat of my pants and plane "feel", yes there are days I really can feel the sim plane   , to be able to tell someone how to do ACM.  I think that this thread has been extremely helpful to any level of pilot that reads it.  

Andy S!  I may have to find time to drive down to see ya and buy ya some coffee and talk shop  


S!
Rocket

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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________

 www.reddragons.de

[This message has been edited by Rocket (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Sorrow

That link is working now...but we have had some server problems at SimHQ, and I'll pass along your info to our guy that handles those things. Thanks for the heads up!

Regards that 'ACM book'...if I could ever figure out how to do it, I would. My writing partner and I have been over this time and again, and we have not found any publisher willing to take the project (we have made 14 proposals to date), nor have we found a way to self-publish the book in a manner that was financially workable. But we have not given up and keep hoping something will turn up.

Until then, I'm going to keep writing for SimHQ. You guys can help out by letting me know what your favorite topics are...I get many ideas from these forum posts...they are my primary way of figuring out what to write about next.

Andy

[Andy Bush]

Rocket

You bet!!

Andy