Author Topic: Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae  (Read 1017 times)

Offline TalonX

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Re: Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2004, 10:06:37 AM »
Interesting read.......I have to study this more...


Almost sounds like Ethanol -  fuel from corn...   What most people don't realize is that it takes more energy to make Ethanol (in most cases) than you derive....  Only government subsidies used to keep this process alive.  I do understand there have been some improvements.   If the process had to stand on its own, I doubt it could.

The other great dream is Fuel Cells.    Run on Hydrogen.   I don't see them working for many years, if ever, in industrial application on a broad scale.
-TalonX

Forgotten, but back in the game.  :)

Offline Sixpence

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Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2004, 10:24:08 AM »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline DieAz

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Re: Re: Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2004, 11:33:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TalonX
Interesting read.......I have to study this more...


Almost sounds like Ethanol -  fuel from corn...   What most people don't realize is that it takes more energy to make Ethanol (in most cases) than you derive....  Only government subsidies used to keep this process alive.  I do understand there have been some improvements.   If the process had to stand on its own, I doubt it could.


not according to this  http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html
The non-profit American Coalition for Ethanol says ethanol production is "extremely energy efficient", with a positive energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% for gasoline, making ethanol production "by far the most efficient method of producing liquid transportation fuels".

Offline Scootter

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Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2004, 01:37:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
I used to produce hydrogen as a kid.....made my own hydrogen "balloons'" out of very large garbage bags. And I didn't use electrolysis.




I think you mean methane

Hydrogen is split from H2O by electrolyses and it takes a lot of electricity to do it, more energy then it releases.

Methane IS used at many landfills to power incinerators or you may see it being burned at night (flame is really hard to see in daylight) at the vent.

I have read about methane being used at dairy ranches for heat after it is produced from manure.

Offline ra

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Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2004, 01:43:15 PM »
I make methane 24/7.

Offline tce2506

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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2004, 02:31:19 PM »
Hydrogen is very easy to produce without electricity Scootter, and Nuke didn't say anything about water either!
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 02:33:46 PM by tce2506 »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2004, 03:36:27 PM »
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The non-profit American Coalition for Ethanol says ethanol production is "extremely energy efficient", with a positive energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% for gasoline, making ethanol production "by far the most efficient method of producing liquid transportation fuels".


That's why there's a subsidy of 54 cents per gallon of ethanol that comes out of our highway funds to make it economically competitive with gasoline.

Charon

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2004, 03:48:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Question,

Why is it we havent put more emphasis on Alcohol.
Doesnt Alcohol burn practically pollution free?


they tried, but the FDB's kept stealing shipments.

Offline ygsmilo

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Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2004, 03:56:58 PM »
On my last trip down to Brazil you could buy 3 kinds of fuel at a gas station.  Gasoline, Ethonal or 100% Alchol.  All cars there ( built in the last 3 years ) are required to have the ability to burn any of the fuels.  The price of Alchol was about 1.25 rials litre or .42 cents per litre.  All the alchol down there is produced from sugar.   Lots of sugar cane down there.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2004, 03:59:01 PM »
if your driving a car that runs on alcohol and your in a wreck, is that a "alcohol related accident"?

Offline Charon

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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2004, 06:21:48 PM »
That's interesting Milo. There are a variety of crops, like sugarcane, that do a lot better than grain at producing ethanol. Grain produces a relatively low yield for the effort, but can get some increased efficiency if the waste product is additionally used as a livestock feed.

There is currently a 5-billion gallon ethanol mandate as part of the stalled energy bill. Good for major agribusiness, and the farmers seem to think its good for them too (though imports and the development of biomass technologies may bite them in the ass). A real pisser for the oil industry though because ethanol can't be shipped in pipelines (blended or straight) and must be blended at the terminals.  It increases botique fuel problems and overall price volatility issues as well. And, at it's core, there's only so much ethanol you can produce compared to US gasoline demand. US grain ethanol is more expensive and we, as taxpayers, take care of that.

You can get overseas ethanol cheaper and undercut the subsidy, but tariff measures are apparently being promoted to protect that subsidy for grain. All in all, a pander to farmers and profits for ADM, in the US at least.

Charon

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2004, 06:35:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
T US grain ethanol is more expensive
Charon


So what your saying is a bunch of unemployed rednecks can afford to build  a still and produce alcohol cheaply and multibillion dollar corporations cant? LOL
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Offline Torque

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Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2004, 06:42:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
That's why there's a subsidy of 54 cents per gallon of ethanol that comes out of our highway funds to make it economically competitive with gasoline.

Charon


In a Free Market isn't the environment considered a liability?

How does the play in the grand picture?

Just asking...

Offline MrCoffee

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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2004, 06:45:33 PM »
Turkey/bio waste oil seems the most economical and practical. It will run on current technology. Once introduced will drop the price of standard oil, thus reducing the costs and help the economy thus solving all of our problems. Except for pollution but the engines are getting better. Seems more practical to evolve unless something revolutionary comes along like nuclear powered cars.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 06:50:01 PM by MrCoffee »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2004, 07:01:21 PM »
Quote
So what your saying is a bunch of unemployed rednecks can afford to build a still and produce alcohol cheaply and multibillion dollar corporations cant? LOL


It's cheap at human consumption/get a buzz levels. But you're not going to fill your tank with Jack Daniels :) Even without the taxes it's going to cost you more.

Quote
n a Free Market isn't the environment considered a liability?


Ethanol has been sold to the public as a "clean" fuel for many years. But, it's a wash, actually. Even ADM etc. have moved away from that and into the "reduce foreign oil" argument. This isn’t much better factually, but it’s easier to sell since a variety of recent science has challenged the clean air position.

Ethanol helps with CO emissions in "winter" gasoline formulation in certain problem areas. It is actually worse in summertime (NOx) reduction applications because it increases vapor volatility leading to more fume leakage into the environment. Oxygenates in general are not required useful with cars possessing oxygen sensors (which most now do). The oil industry could develop similar formulations without using ethanol, but that is mandated for political/agribusiness reasons.

Charon