Author Topic: Refusal of orders...my views  (Read 709 times)

Offline AWMac

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Refusal of orders...my views
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2004, 08:35:56 AM »
Great post Gun <<>>

I would have done the same thing.

U.S. Army Retired E7 Here.

Offline xHaMmeRx

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Refusal of orders...my views
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2004, 08:40:58 AM »
quote:
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 BAGHDAD, Iraq - The company commander of a U.S. Army Reserve unit whose soldiers refused to deliver fuel along a dangerous route in Iraq (news - web sites) has been relieved of her duties, the U.S. military said Thursday.
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It also said it was being done at her (the company commander's) request. That sometimes means she was offered the choice to request reassignment or be relieved. Based on the circumstances, that would be my guess. She had clearly lost control of her unit.

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2004, 09:41:29 AM »
I was never in an operational unit that didn't have differences of opinion among leadership.

I don't think this thing should have ever gone this far or with this noteriety, regardless of the circumstances. If the facts warranted a change of mission timing or preparedness, the company commander should have done that. If the facts warranted discipline action for unsubstantiated refusal to complete the mission, the commander should have done that.

In either case, I would say the commander is at fault for not getting a handle on it with the support and counsel at batallion level.

As an old, old, old guy who got out long before you guys got in (31 years ago next month - Sheesh, I sound like my father...), it is a pleasure and reassuring to read the thoughtful approach by our young whippersnapper, modern-day NCO, gunslinger.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2004, 09:45:53 AM »
Gun,

A key point to this that is left out of your analysis is the information trail.  Here's my take:

Soldiers are required to follow orders.  Period.  The only orders they are not required to follow are illegal ones.  

To determine if the benefits of the mission outweigh the risks may work on a local scale, but not in the big picture.

  ie:  while moving your convoy, you as PL or NCO determine which intersection to cross and in what order, since you know the basic risks and benefits of each location.  You can make an assessment.

In the big picture, not only do you not always know the benefits, you RARELY know.  You are given an objective that you are responsible for completing.  HOW you complete that objective can usually be determined using your risk/benefit analysis, but NOT whether the mission is worth it.  It's part of a larger mission, that you don't have the info on.  It's need to know.  They don't WANT you to know the big picture for many reasons, not the least of which is your capture.  Then THAT big picture is only a part of ANOTHER big picture.

You don't know what consequences your failure will bring.  Driving a supply run may seem insignificant, but you don't know.  It's not your place to know.  You just do it.

Offline Sixpence

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Refusal of orders...my views
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2004, 09:54:45 AM »
I'm confused. They have the draft, you can't refuse, but once you get drafted, you can refuse? Is it possible to refuse after they refuse to let you refuse? I'm confused.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Finrod

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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2004, 10:35:22 AM »
Judgement will have to be reserved until all the facts come out, however...you knew that was coming...small unit leaders are expected to follow their instructions. They are not in the position to understand the "Big Picture". What I find the most distressing about this whole situation is that it is yet another incident involving a reserve component unit. Army leadership is going to have to look long and hard at how we are training and sustaining leaders in the reserve side of the house.

Offline jamusta

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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2004, 10:36:40 AM »
Before I comment on this I will give you some background on my experience.
4 years active duty USMC
4 1/2 years active duty Army
Currently 5 1/2 years Army reserves.
I am currently SSG.
Now my comments:

These 18 soldiers delivered this fuel to a unit earlier but it was refused by that unit because it was contaminated. They were ordered to deliver this exact same fuel to another and refused for this reason plus maintenance and security issues since they were going into a hot spot.

As a NCO I would have protested the contaminated fuel on behalf of my soldiers but the mission would have been carried out. A good NCO would have talked to his/ her soldiers. Let them know that someone is relying on them to do a job and that the fuel needs to be deliverd regardless of their convictions. If they did proper PMCS (preventive maintenance) they would not have maintenance issues. Security they say? Well practice your defensive tactics and pad your truck doors with flakjackets or use extra materials anything to make your soldiers feel more secure and clean your riffles!!!!! Bottom line is mission first always...

These soldiers disobeyed a lawful order and should be punished accordingly.

This is the product of your congressmen and women. Long gone are the days of handing grenades to a private and telling him to take out that machine gun nest. In todays army you can no longer offend soldiers. No cursing at soldiers. You actually have to be polite when giving orders. In basic training they are always crying to their parents about their treatment. The parents in turn write the nasty I wont vote for you letters to their Representatives who in turn crack down on the military. Hence you see the result.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2004, 11:32:13 AM »
Quote
 In basic training they are always crying to their parents about their treatment. The parents in turn write the nasty I wont vote for you letters to their Representatives who in turn crack down on the military. Hence you see the result.


Yup, that can be a problem, and it is just a carry over from school days when parents rant if a child get disciplined for misbehavior, too many parents think their child is, of course, perfect and the problem must be with the teacher.  

My son has made it clear that while there might be at times a situation he doesn't like in the Army, we are not to interfere or contact anyone.  He will handle it, or accept it, but we are not to get involved in any way.  Thats how it is, and how it should be.   Once they enter the military, they are to be considered and treated as adults, and not still the protected child of a worrisome parent.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline jamusta

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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2004, 12:39:57 PM »
Sometimes there is a call for parents to get involved. This situation is not one of them. If soldiers have a problem with their command then the Inspector General is always a good place to start. But to run to your parents and tell them you are sick because the barracks are to cold and they send a letter their congressman and he in turn emails the base commander who is then forced to turn on the heat and its the begining of October in Georgia is rediculous. True Story by the way.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2004, 01:04:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by jamusta
Before I comment on this I will give you some background on my experience.
4 years active duty USMC
4 1/2 years active duty Army
Currently 5 1/2 years Army reserves.
I am currently SSG.
Now my comments:

These 18 soldiers delivered this fuel to a unit earlier but it was refused by that unit because it was contaminated. They were ordered to deliver this exact same fuel to another and refused for this reason plus maintenance and security issues since they were going into a hot spot.

As a NCO I would have protested the contaminated fuel on behalf of my soldiers but the mission would have been carried out. A good NCO would have talked to his/ her soldiers. Let them know that someone is relying on them to do a job and that the fuel needs to be deliverd regardless of their convictions. If they did proper PMCS (preventive maintenance) they would not have maintenance issues. Security they say? Well practice your defensive tactics and pad your truck doors with flakjackets or use extra materials anything to make your soldiers feel more secure and clean your riffles!!!!! Bottom line is mission first always...

These soldiers disobeyed a lawful order and should be punished accordingly.

This is the product of your congressmen and women. Long gone are the days of handing grenades to a private and telling him to take out that machine gun nest. In todays army you can no longer offend soldiers. No cursing at soldiers. You actually have to be polite when giving orders. In basic training they are always crying to their parents about their treatment. The parents in turn write the nasty I wont vote for you letters to their Representatives who in turn crack down on the military. Hence you see the result.


Now as an NCO how would you feel if you were leading this mission....after protest.  On the way you lose a guy or two just to get there and have the same fuel refused for contamination.

What do you tell those kids parents?  "Your son died to deliver contaminated fuel that was allready refused once at the destination"

The "big picture" here isn't exactly clear, I know in the Corps we had a system called "request mast" wich meant you could take an issue up the chain of command and were garunteed a response.  

Given THESE facts that jamusta described I would have utilized every method at my disposal to prevent endangering the lives of my troops for an absolutly needless mission.


Quote
Sometimes there is a call for parents to get involved. This situation is not one of them. If soldiers have a problem with their command then the Inspector General is always a good place to start. But to run to your parents and tell them you are sick because the barracks are to cold and they send a letter their congressman and he in turn emails the base commander who is then forced to turn on the heat and its the begining of October in Georgia is rediculous. True Story by the way.


I was told another funny one the other day.  A kid in Boot camp is told by his DI to write a letter home to his parents telling them he is safe and what they can/cannot send him while he's there.

In this letter the recruit very plainly says "send me some socks"

well the freaked out mother gets even more freaked out and calls her congressmen whom she knows on a personal basis.  The congressmen then talks to the secretary of the navy....the SecNav then talks to the commidant of the Marine Corps......the CMC then calls the Comanding General of MCRD San Diego....this goes on all the way down the chain of command all the way to the very pissed off DI and a scared Chitless recruit.

The recruit is then instructed to very elequently to write his mother listing all of the items he was issued while at recruit training.  All this because a freaked out mother thaught her baby didn't have any socks! ;)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 01:09:07 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2004, 01:08:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger


Given THESE facts that jamusta described I would have utilized every method at my disposal to prevent endangering the lives of my troops for an absolutly needless mission.


The point is, you don't know that it was an absolutely needless mission.   Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.  Maybe it was this time, but won't be next time.

It's just not the troops decision to make.  Maybe failure to take that convoy cost more American lives.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2004, 01:16:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
The point is, you don't know that it was an absolutely needless mission.   Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.  Maybe it was this time, but won't be next time.

It's just not the troops decision to make.  Maybe failure to take that convoy cost more American lives.


my decision was based on the fact that the fuel was refused the day prior because it was contaminated.  If this is not the case to me that changes things.

Offline jamusta

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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2004, 01:38:00 PM »
I was brought up in the military not to allow my subordinates hear or see me biatch. It does nothing for their morale. The protest would not have been done in front of them. Yes the fuel was contaminated. The unit that it was taken to accepted it. Just because one unit didnt want it doesnt mean the next wont as you can see. Contaminated or not hummers and other vehicles will still run off of it. I would have requested to transport some freash fuel, which would have probably been denied, but I would not refuse the mission. If I were to receive a casualty during that mission the letter home would not say he died carrying contaminated fuel or that it was a needless mission. That would dishonor that soldiers death. What will that gain who will that help?

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2004, 02:05:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
my decision was based on the fact that the fuel was refused the day prior because it was contaminated.  If this is not the case to me that changes things.


It could have been a load of sand.  Who cares?  Maybe it was just a diversion?  The point is, you don't know.

You just do what your told.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2004, 02:15:38 PM »
Can someone explain me what "contaminated fuel" is ?
(seriously I've no idea)