Author Topic: Level Bombing Realism  (Read 1327 times)

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2004, 12:36:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mak333
 For those planes, lets disable the release of bombs from any other position than the bombardier's.  


  Let`s not. :D
  Instead maybe disable the next flight of any fighters within a certain radius that could have easily confronted the low, incoming bomber instead of heading into an allready capped base and letting their CV get sunk, etc. Makes just as much sense.
  Case in point: Yesterday morning I went to attempt sinking an NME CV. The base had aprx. 10 fighters with a tight cap on the pummeled field.  I was alone, unescorted.Upon reaching the area the CV was located at an altitiude of around 4.5 to 5K there were 10 NME planes over the CV still grabbing alt , although ALL of them had an allt advantage over my bombers. Why they were still grabbing I haven`t a clue. Any one of them could have made my run a living hell. Instead they ignored the incoming threat and headed to the allready capped field.  Made my pass over the CV, dropped 2 salvos of 4 500lbers, returned to base uncontested by the fighters and scored the sinking of the CV.
  It boils down to you asking for the removal of someone elses ability to accomplish their task when YOU are not willing to put out any effort to defend against the threat.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Mak333

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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2004, 01:26:28 PM »
Jackal, The idea is the realism factor, not someone's ability to bomb without escort....

We already know lancs can dive bomb and take out all FH's with no escort even if base is heavily populated.  The point being tried to make here is how can we limit the suicidal bombers.  Not if we can shut them down before they reach the field....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 01:49:01 PM by Mak333 »
Mak

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2004, 01:53:06 PM »
When the B24 gets released its number cause of death will be...


Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2004, 02:53:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mak333
Jackal, The idea is the realism factor, not someone's ability to bomb without escort...
 


 LOL The realism factor is that with 10 fighters with alt over an unescorted bomber group would be a turkey shoot for the fighters if instead of going off on search for the easy points or kills.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2004, 02:57:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mak333
Jackal, The idea is the realism factor, not someone's ability to bomb without escort....

We already know lancs can dive bomb and take out all FH's with no escort even if base is heavily populated.  The point being tried to make here is how can we limit the suicidal bombers.  Not if we can shut them down before they reach the field....


  If the base is heavily populated as you put it then Lancs should be your bread and butter. Lancs are the easiest target of them all. What, supposedly is all this heavy population doing if not taking out threats before they reach the base, pylon racing?
  As you put it," shut them down before they reach the field" should be priority #1. It should also be a cake walk .
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Offline Scaevola

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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2004, 02:57:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
You will find the fighters located in the hangar section on your clipboard.


Once again I am amazed by the cohesive and constructive arguments for and against a subject you get on this bulletin board.

I will try and put it in terms that will be a lot easier on the grey matter:-

Me in Panzer on ground
panzer no got wings
me know where hanger is
but me in panzer

geezer comes in B17 and dive bombs
methinks oooh lemme go all the way back to hanger to grab plane to shoot bad old B17 down.
and yeh lo and behold bloke in B17 not be there when get back.

anyone can be a smart ... and try and bring the level of discussion down to a certain level but as stated in my previous posts it's a case of self examination and if you want to dive bomb B17's etc that is your choice but in my humble onion thats going outside the aspect of what the gameplay is about.

If anyone has a legitimate reason or they can point to certain examples to justify dive bombing in heavy bombers then I'll look at them and say either yeh you got me beat or try and formulate an argument against.


If you're gonna quote then quote verbatim.
If you're gonna be a smart ... then at least be smart.
If you're gonna argue then at least have an argument.
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« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 03:28:48 PM by Scaevola »

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2004, 03:12:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scaevola

Me in Panzer on ground
panzer no got wings
me know where hanger is
but me in panzer

 


 Don`t be in panzer.
 Plane has wings.
 Also has guns.
 Shoot bomber down before reachs base.
 Panzer in this case useless anyway.


  Now Tonto, maybe in your language you can get a grip on reality.
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2004, 03:39:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
That, my friend, requires *effort*.  Its vastly easier to rant here and demand such things not be allowed.

At this point, bombers should be thankful the engines start :p


What a load of crap. I had a a 5 bomber kill sorti last night and a 3 bomber kill sorti last night. The night befor I had a lanc formation sorti where I bombed a defended large base from 14k and destroyed all 7 fighter hangers my self killed an intercepting p38 and landed all three bombers. All those sortis were flown with my country out numbered by just one of the other countries by over 2 to 1

There. do I get to comment on how stupid the current bomber usage is?
Make the bombers work like they are technically limited to.
Its not like anyone is asking for anything less then then what is reasonable limitations on what bombers could do.  Let them bomb dive the Ju88 if they want.  It was made for it.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2004, 01:41:05 AM »
Quote
It boils down to you asking for the removal of someone elses ability to accomplish their task when YOU are not willing to put out any effort to defend against the threat.


 The effort to defend has no relevance in this matter at all. We're talking about a systematic exploit in the game.

 Since it turns out that most people are too lazy to ever plan and execute a proper bomb run, and exploit the F3 externals and limited depiction of G-effects in bomb drop angles, it is only natural that something must be done with it.

 If the fighters in your case were too lazy to stop you, that's all fine and dandy. But that's really got nothing to do with the bombers dancing and jerking to avoid fire, diving to gain 350mph speed(which is a speed higher than 80% of fighters in the plane set can achieve at that alts with level acceleration), and going in with a  nice dive angle to time the drop by using F3 externals with the whole formation that can spew at least 10,000lbs amount of ordnance at the target area.

 In other words, if you wanna still do the low-alt bombing thing, then fine. You don't want to calibrate it? Then fine.

 You'll just have to do it in the bombardier's position. During a level flight. Through the bombsight. That's what it boils down to.

Offline PropNut

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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2004, 02:18:25 AM »
http://www.dba-oracle.com/louis_f_burleson.htm

As copied from the link above





Major Bernard Schriever, a newly-minted Major fresh from Graduate school at Stanford University, joined the 19th bomb group in Australia and directed Burleson’s effort to perfect the flare racks.  In less than 90-days Schriever recommended Louis Burleson for an officer’s commission.  Schriever was the pilot of Louis Burleson’s crew on a famous bombing raid there Schriever used the B-17 as a dive bomber, destroying Japanese battleship in an act of extreme heroism.  This recollection is from an article about General Schriever in “Air Force” magazine:


General Bernard Schriever
 “They flew in a formation of about a dozen B-17s in a night raid on Rabaul. Their airplane carried the flares and half the regular bomb load. The flare system worked well, but Schriever wanted to check on the bombing results, so they made another circuit over the target area. Flak was heavy but ineffective at the 10,000-foot altitude from which they were bombing.

As they turned, the No. 3 engine burst into a ball of flames. Dougherty, in the left seat, feathered the prop and shut the engine down. They still had bombs on board but did not want to set up another bombing approach. A quick conference on the intercom led to a decision: They would dive-bomb the ships in the harbor.”
 

Since it apparently CAN be done  I see no reason to change history just to satisfy a few that dont like it.  Im sure that all the twin engine  (and apparently even the B-17) bombers have official reports of dive bombing in them.   BTW  I also believe its over used in AH but then again there are so many things that dont fit into the "real" catagory.  maybe disable any dive bombing in formations would help  it seems like a streach  that a whole formation would dive bomb .

Offline eagl

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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2004, 05:53:04 AM »
Even an F-15E is limited to approx +/-  60 degrees in the tech order due to "bad things" happening at more extreme angles, and we are using external carriage with explosive ejectors that shove the weapons away from the plane at a precise angle during release.  Dropping gravity-release bombs from a bomb bay with a total relative "G force" vector more than 20ish degrees away from straight down out the bomb bay doors is just begging for either a weapon hangup in the racks, weapon to weapon contact and detonation, or a weapon to aircraft impact that could leave a live weapon bouncing around loose inside the bomb bay.  

I heard a report of a B-1 release over Iraq where the pilot began to turn before the bomb bay was empty, and several bombs struck the bomb bay doors after only a 10-20 degree roll, causing minor damage.  That's only a small roll while still in level flight, so imagine the damage in more extreme flight conditions?

As for the historical report of a B-17 "dive bombing", even a 10 degree dive is considered a dive bombing attack so without more details as to the actual dive angle and situation, there's no way that account, however true it may be, can possibly be used to justify the extreme dives possible, effective, and survivable in AH heavy bombers as currently modeled.

Maybe Pyro and HT could scrape together a bomb bay mockup in the computer and drop virtual bombs out of it from various roll and pitch angles.  It ought to be visually apparent at what angle it's unlikely the bombs will cleanly exit the bomb bay, and those results could be used as force-limiting factors when bombs are released.  The amount of G forces could also be varied since a bomb released at less than 1 G would drop more slowly as well and may not cleanly exit the bomb bay.  If the relative force vector on the bay exceeds the limiting angle or the force component out of the bay is less than, say, .5 G's (for example), the bomb release would not be successful and would either hang up in the bay or the bombs could explode right there.

A simple virtual box with doors and racks of bombs sized according to a B-17 bomb bay might not take too long to model, and then it could just be rotated and accelerated in space as the weapons are released.  Bomb to model and bomb to bomb contact would need to be modelled to really see the effects of the various angles on release, and bomb drag also would help show how various airflow angles affect a clean release as well.

The "problem" has been identified and there are a few ways to go about doing something about it.  Right now, it's just a facet of the heavy bomber concept that simply isn't modelled so people are taking advantage of that hole in the aircraft model to do things that probably wouldn't be possible in real life.  Without determining what the proper behaviour *should* be through some experimentation and design work however, any fixes are just gameplay adjustments instead of an actual addition or modification to the aircraft simulation.  It is my understanding that this is why HT and Pyro have let it go on so long...  They haven't had the time to properly simulate it to figure out the right way to add this to the bomber model to make it realistic instead of just a way to artifically limit gameplay.

IMHO :)

It doesn't matter to me personally because dive bombing goofs in the game simply don't affect me one way or another.  It's a game and they're taking advantage of a game feature.  The way I play the game only very rarely takes me into contact with people using this particular quirk of the simulation so it's an academic exercise to me.  If the HTC crew has time to fix it right, good for them and good for us.  If not, it doesn't affect me anyhow and I'll enjoy the nice new water and other enhancements they keep adding because those DO affect my gameplay and I appreciate their work.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2004, 05:56:00 AM by eagl »
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Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2004, 06:40:51 AM »
Not interested in buying into this "you gotta play my way" stuff in the MA at all.

You may however be interested in something that apparently happened in WW2 that astonishes me with its skill and bravery.

I was watching a History Channel story on 617 Squadron and they made reference to a pilot dive-bombing in a Lancaster so as to hit a target with great accuracy.   They reported that one of the pilots was able to successfully demonstrate the technique.  Apparently Cheshire VC was inspired by the idea and after getting a personal exhibition, realised it's benefits and promoted its use for target marking.  He thought that using a Lancaster probably wasn't the optimum so he proposed and then introduced Mosquitoes into the Squadron for the task.  He often flew one of them himself.  The technique was then adapted for Pathfinder use.

After the dam raids 617 became a special weapons squadron skilled in the ultra-accurate placement of bombs like the 12,000lb Tallboy and 22,000lb Grand Slam.

I spent 60 seconds and googled up these 3 references to the Lanc and diving and divebombing.  They are not related directly to each other so be careful of their context.

"Barbara then introduced Bob Knights for a talk on Wartime Memories of 617 Squadron. Bob explained that 617 (the famous Dambusters), was formed on March 20th 1943 for the sole purpose of destroying the Möhne, Eder and Sorpe dams using Barnes-Wallis’s new bouncing bomb. The raid took place on May 16th, 1943, and the Möhne and Eder were both breached. Bob joined the squadron after the dams raid. Leonard Cheshire was now in command, having taken a reduction in rank from Group Captain to Wing Commander.
Bob’s story covered the first raid over France using a new bomb sight, SABS, and a new marking method promoted by Cheshire: dive a Lancaster straight down on the target and drop the flare from low level. "

"Several missions followed against pin point targets, but they were not a great success. Oboe marking was too inaccurate against small targets. Cheshire and Martin worked out between them that only low- level marking in a dive would be good enough, and on 3/4 January 1944, they tried it against a flying bomb site at Freval. By the illumination of flares, they marked from 400 ft (120 m), and 12,000 lbs (5440 kg) bombs from the remainder of the formation as they obliterated the target."

"Morale went up fantastically as the Lancaster proved herself to be easy to use. This was a big aircraft, and she flew as easily and as dexterously as a Tiger Moth. The lanc had no bad habits ... you could dive the Lancaster at phenomenal speeds..."
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there is where the vultures gather together.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2004, 09:27:59 PM »
And how often did such things happen when compared with the regular 8th AF/RAF bombing sorties?

 Let's face it. We don't play the game how we want. We play it how HTC wants and how they see fit. Their mission statement starts;

Quote
"Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WWII air combat
and sets it in an online high intensity environment where
hundreds of players can battle it out with and against
each other..."


 Art and science? Where's the 'art and science' in the deck bomb runs? The only thing I see there is laziness and crudity. I wouldn't say this if 99% of the bombers I see in the MA are flying under 5k.

 It is a result of 'misplaced' bombers that have no place in the MA. MA revolves around fast-paced field captures which conditions that change by the minute. A bomber that takes a long time to get up to alt, to try to hit such small tactical-scale targets, is wildly inefficient.

 No doubt, it is because AH started out as a small-scale A2A combat simulation, with bombers or GVs being nothing more than 'side-show attractions'. However, the numbers grew, people changed, and the game evolved into more than what it was.

 The only point of compromise that holds people with wildly different ideas of 'fun' together, is that we fly to simulate certain aspects of typical WW2 combat, and that is what holds its novelty over many other games from other competitors. AH is a realistic experience, recreated in a multiplayer environment, which is not limited to a "MP Room", but happens in a large-scale battlefield on real time.

 If the people who object to such limitations are truly "in defense of" bomber usage, then they should ask for a better strat system, not try to protect a gameplay exploit that kills whatever immersion left in the MA.

 If the people who object to such limitations are in defense of "the player's freedom to do whatever he wants", then that's bullshi*.

Offline SPIKER

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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2004, 10:26:27 PM »
Low-level bomb runs were made in real life some good some not so good, in all forms of aircraft.  The hard angle of attack was not used in all forms of aircraft, it was fatally realized by some crews and test pilots.  
  An angle restriction is the only way to conform to a realism factor.

  People behind this game has got to say Geeeesssss!  Ok now with all the open suggestions I will set down and right the parameters for such changes.

Hats off to ya AH for putin up with all of us

Spiker

Offline Blue Mako

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« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2004, 08:48:30 PM »
In real life a bomb aimer released the bombs.

Disable bomb release from any position aside from the bomb aimer F6 view.  Require a calibration before release (akin to "fusing the bombs").

Voila no more dive bombing.