the U.K. likes its burglars

[lazs2]

Soooo... If I am getting this correctly.... if those people would have had firearms they would not have died.... they probly would have killed or wounded the assailants tho and thus increased the death rate by firearms by at least double in england...

The murder rate would have stayed the same but the deaths by firearms would have doubled and the at least half the "victims" would have richly deserved it.

"ony Martin Support Group show that over a five year period at least SIXTY SIX householders have been killed by burglars, many of the victims being elderly. These figures are an understatement, as they do not include those killed by 'intruders', and we requested further details from the Home Office on January 8th 2002. We have so far had no reply. Perhaps they've lost the forms. "

lazs

[Airhead]

Lazs, it's obvious British burgulars have a very large, and effective, political lobby, and Mr. Martin is  a warning to those Brits who have given up on their Government's ability to protect them.

How else could you explain a citizenry willing to endure a burgulary rate three times higher than that of the US, and STILL not have the basic right to protect ones home?

[beet1e]

Ah, yes. I can see that our yanks are already in need of a change of underwear following this one.

It just so happens that there's another story today, about a judge who gave his full support to a farmer who shot an intruder in self defence.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=J1HUYTV52WWOBQFIQMGSM5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/10/26/nshot26.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/26/ixportaltop.html

Not sure if those links ^ work for everyone, so here's the article, cut-n-pasted à la Ripsnort.

Farmer who shot burglar backed by judge
By Ben Fenton
(Filed: 26/10/2004)

A 73-year-old farmer who shot a burglar after being broken into three times "could not be criticised" for the way he defended his property, a judge said yesterday.

   
Farmer Kenneth Faulkner leaving court
The case, less than a week after the alleged murder of a 45-year-old west London teacher by a burglar, seems certain to revive debate about how much force home owners can use to defend themselves and their property.

Judge Andrew Hamilton, sentencing the burglar to seven years in jail for a string of similar crimes, said it was "a pity" that prosecutors had even thought of bringing charges of assault against the farmer, Kenneth Faulkner.

The case has echoes of the conviction for murder of Tony Martin, a Norfolk farmer, after he shot dead a burglar at his farmhouse in 1999. The Court of Appeal ruled that Martin had used unreasonable force but reduced his conviction to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility after he had suffered numerous burglaries.

Malcolm Starr, a businessman and spokesman for Martin, who was freed last year, said last night: "At last a judge has taken a sensible position in a case of this nature. Unfortunately no political party seems to want to listen to the public on the subject of law and order."

The Sunday Telegraph began a campaign at the weekend to give householders stronger and clearer powers of self-defence on their own property.

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, supported the campaign, saying: "The law needs considerably more clarification and should be re-balanced in favour of householders and against criminals."

Mr Faulkner, who has lived alone at isolated Keys Farm, at Ockbrook, Derbyshire, since the death of his wife two years ago, was first burgled by three men in July.

During the raid they broke into a gun cabinet and took five shotguns, a longbow, arrows, a crossbow and bolts.

Then one of the gang, 22-year-old John Rae, returned alone in August and stole a mechanical digger. When he went back the next day, Mr Faulkner confronted him and fired his shotgun, hitting Rae's leg with pellets.

After hearing that the Crown Prosecution Service had only recently told the farmer that he would not face charges, Judge Hamilton told Rae at Derby Crown Court: "Mr Faulkner believed he was being targeted - and he was entirely right.

"He wrongly believed the burglars had come back armed with those guns that had been stolen. Very sensibly he took out his shotgun.

"Nobody could criticise him for what he did. For him it has been a most harassing and terrible incident.

"It is only a pity that charges were considered against him. Sensibly, the decision was made - which I entirely agree with - that the matter would not be pursued."

Michael Auty, prosecuting, said the "primary reason" that the CPS decided not to charge Mr Faulkner was that Rae had been left with only pellet wounds in his lower leg.

Rae, of Stanton-by-Dale, Derbyshire, pleaded guilty to three charges of burglary and one of burglary with intent at the farm.

He also admitted seven other offences of burglary, theft and handling and asked for 16 similar offences to be considered.

The court heard that the estimated value of the property taken during all of his crimes amounted to almost £50,000 and that he had caused £7,000 damage.

Avik Mukherjee, defending, admitted that Rae, who had numerous previous convictions, had thrown away a string of chances the courts had given him.

He claimed that Rae had been "manipulated" by his two accomplices, who had not been caught, and said: "His offending has resulted in him being shot.

"If that does not set alarm bells ringing, frankly nothing will. He knows that he will be made a long-term prisoner - and he deserves it."

A member of Rae's family, who asked not to be named, said the case had sent out "the wrong message" and asked: "Are they saying we can all shoot burglars?"

[Seeker]

Originally posted by JBA
Perhaps we US citizens should start a letter righting campaign, i.e. the Guardian did in Ohio, to get the laws changed in the UK.

Perhaps a pro DEATH Penalty law and a right to carry law would be a good place to start.

Lets see how they like foreigners middling in their affairs?

We've had foreginers meddling in our affairs for years.

How do you think Eire was founded?

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Seeker
We've had foreginers meddling in our affairs for years.

How do you think Eire was founded?

Because of Brits meddling in someone else's affairs?

[storch]

absolutely amazing.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Dowding
I think being sent to Australia should be part of a reward scheme for model citizens. Funny how things turnaround. Now you've got air conditioning and running water, Britain views Australia in a completely different light.

Would love to emigrate out there - one of the reason's I'm training to be an accountant is to boost my chances, should I ever need a change of climate. Girlfriend is a nurse, so maybe in the future it might happen?

We've got colour TV and everything mate

I work with a few poms, and we're always  taking the piss outa each other...I've got no idea why you'd wanna stay in England anyhow, warm beer, crap food, constant rain...hairy women

Originally posted by Curval
lol...upon entering Austrailia a British businessman was asked by an immigration official if he had a crimminal record.

The man responded to the official by saying "No, but I didn't realise this was still a requirement".

LOL

 Tronsky

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by beet1e
Ah, yes. I can see that our yanks are already in need of a change of underwear following this one.

It just so happens that there's another story today, about a judge who gave his full support to a farmer who shot an intruder in self defence.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=J1HUYTV52WWOBQFIQMGSM5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/10/26/nshot26.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/26/ixportaltop.html

Not sure if those links ^ work for everyone, so here's the article, cut-n-pasted à la Ripsnort.

But beetle according to you this farmer shouldnt evewn have a gun to defend himse;f, so its rather cheap of you post anything.

Maybe you should send some money to the poor burglar who now cant work..

[Dowding]

Lets see how they like foreigners middling in their affairs?

You ignoramus.

Ever since the EU/EC became political we've had yanks campaigning against further UK involvement with it. Then one day a similar thing happens in the US and through your own ignorance you scream blue murder.

Because of Brits meddling in someone else's affairs?

And Yanks don't do the same? Turn on the TV. There's something happening down in Iraq.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But beetle according to you this farmer shouldnt evewn have a gun to defend himse;f, so its rather cheap of you post anything.

Maybe you should send some money to the poor burglar who now cant work..

Ah yes, it's our resident Yank-wannabe poster boy.

We've always had shotguns. Farmers use them to kill foxes that might be worrying the sheep or the hens. People go pheasant shooting with them.

But they're not designed for criminal use, it's not legal to shorten the barrel, and there's no shotgun culture. I could buy a shotgun (though I'd have to go further than the next street corner to do it) - but I don't think I'll bother.

[storch]

Originally posted by Dowding
You ignoramus.

Ever since the EU/EC became political we've had yanks campaigning against further UK involvement with it. Then one day a similar thing happens in the US and through your own ignorance you scream blue murder.



And Yanks don't do the same? Turn on the TV. There's something happening down in Iraq.

"Listen to me dog before you start to whine, this side's yours and your side's mine, move it on over, rock it on over.  Move over li'l dog the big bad dog is movin' in."

George Thorogood

[storch]

Originally posted by beet1e
Ah yes, it's our resident Yank-wannabe poster boy.

We've always had shotguns. Farmers use them to kill foxes that might be worrying the sheep or the hens. People go pheasant shooting with them.

But they're not designed for criminal use, it's not legal to shorten the barrel, and there's no shotgun culture. I could buy a shotgun (though I'd have to go further than the next street corner to do it) - but I don't think I'll bother.

send the poor deprived dope dealing burglar a map to get your house and the keys.

[cpxxx]

Tony Martin is not a great poster boy for the home defence cause. He is a bit of a nutter.  Previously he shot at some kids robbing his orchard for which he lost his shotgun licence.  The shotgun he used therefore was illegal and he did shoot the guy in the back.  So not surprisingly he got locked up for it.

On the other hand here in Ireland only a couple of weeks ago an elderly farmer found two men in his kitchen.  After a struggle he grabbed his shotgun and shot one TWICE killing him.  The guy who got killed was a 'Traveller' and a known criminal. No sympathy from anyone there and no sign that the farmer is to be prosecuted.
Summary justice it seems. I wonder how that farmer would be treated in England?

[Dowding]

I wonder how that farmer would be treated in England?

English law allows for that situtation. It depends if the farmer is judged to have used reasonable force in the situation. Clearly there was a struggle - I should think he would be aquitted of any wrong doing, if charged at all.

Tony Martin used an illegally held weapon to shoot a lad in the back. Rightly or wrongly, that was not reasonable force in the eyes of English law.