Author Topic: Ripsnort was right  (Read 1729 times)

Offline Thrawn

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Ripsnort was right
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2004, 03:11:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The best thing about the trade deficit is that we are getting goods and services from other nations in exchange for paper.



Heheh >< that close to getting me.  ;)

Short term, it's great raises standard of living.  Long term your manufactuing, industrial and intellectual bases gets exported, that isn't good.  And bad things happen if anyone or group of anyones decide to call in the debt.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2004, 03:13:52 AM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
Isn't it kinda the other way around? The US is buying all the world's crap. They should thank us :)


Well, they could always just burn the stuff and it would have the same effect on thier economy as giving it away for free, plus not shipping costs.  ;)

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2004, 03:18:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Heheh >< that close to getting me.  ;)

 And bad things happen if anyone or group of anyones decide to call in the debt.


That's the beauty of it all Thrawn....we are the golden goose. Any country that thinks they can "call" us on the debt ( seperate issue than trade deficit) will be cutting their own neck.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2004, 03:47:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
That's the beauty of it all Thrawn....we are the golden goose.



Why?  Because you take their products off their hands instead of them just buring them?  That doesn't do their economies any good.  The government has to buy those USDs off the exporters.  And how does the government get that money?  Taxes.

The government could just simply give the money directly to the exporters and there would be no net effect on the local economy.



Quote
Any country that thinks they can "call" us on the debt ( seperate issue than trade deficit) will be cutting their own neck.



Yeah, Iraq tried to change one of ther reserve funds into Euros and look what happened to them.  But how many wars can US fight.  

I notice your are ignoring the morallity of the situation though.  The US dug it's own hole here.  The USDs in the central banks vaults are promisary notes.  What would you think of someone that wrote you a massive IOU and then told you to go **** yourself and maybe took your house as well?  Would they be in the wrong or in the right?

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2004, 03:53:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Why?  Because you take their products off their hands instead of them just buring them?  


Huh?

Why would they use resources to make a product if they couldn't sell it? Are you saying that a country's products are worthless and they could just as soon burn them than sell them to the US for paper?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 03:55:16 AM by NUKE »

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2004, 01:58:01 PM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
Huh?

Why would they use resources to make a product if they couldn't sell it?


Two main reasons.

1.  Lobbiest from the export sector and unions of the exporting country say that if they don't make the products and exchange them pieces of paper people will get laid off and that's bad.

2.  US economists and succeeding governments have been putting forth the idea that exports are inherantly benefitial to an economy for decades.  However the US doesn't practice this itself, we can tell by the trade deficit.


Quote
Are you saying that a country's products are worthless and they could just as soon burn them than sell them to the US for paper?



The products only have as much value as you can get for them.

I'm going to use an exaggerated example to make my point.  For these purposes all national currencies have the same exchange rate.  Let's say...




-Taiwan has only one product, computer chips.

-Canada has only one product, lumber

-Taiwan and Canada has balanced trade.

-Taiwan trades $1000 worth of chips for $1000 worth of lumber.

-Both the Canada and Taiwan have gotten $1000 worth of value for their exports.  



-Taiwan has only one product, computer chips.

-The US has only one product, oranges

-The US has a trade deficit with Taiwan.

-Taiwan trades $1000 worth of chips for $600 worth of oranges, the remaining $400 are printed off increasing the amount of USD in circulation by the Fed as promisary notes that in the future Taiwan will get the rest of the $400 worth of oranges.

-Taiwan ends up with $600 worth of oranges now and $400 USD.

-US ends up with $1000 worth of chiips.

The Taiwanese exporter is sitting there with $400 USD that he can't use, he lives in Taiwan and needs to pay his creditors, investors and employees with Taiwanese dollars.  So the government taxes the citizens and buys the USDs off the exporter.

Now the Taiwanese government has $400 in USDs and decides they want to buy some more oranges.  The US government says, "Don't do that!  If you do that they will go back into circulation, USD will fall in value and your exports sector will be more expensive for us to buy.  And remember exports are a good thing.".  And Taiwans export sector and unions say, "Yeah, yeah!".

Next year, same thing happens and these USDs sit there in the Taiwanese central bank growing and growing.  What's more their is no incentive in for people in the US to invest in a computer chip factory because the US is getting $400 dollars worth for free, so how are they supposed to compete with free chips.  If there was a chip manufacture in the US they would go under, because how can you compete with free chips?  Not very good in the long term.

So in the end.

-Taiwan has $600 worth of oranges, and pieces of paper they can't use.



Why not just burn them?


-A Taiwanese exporter has only one product, computer chips.

-The US has only one product, oranges, and has no chips.

-Taiwan trades $600 worth of chips for $600 worth of oranges.

-The Taiwanese government taxes it citizens, buys $400 dollars worth of oranges from the exporter and burns them.

-Taiwan ends up with $600 worth of oranges.

-US ends up with $600 worth of chiips.



What happens if Taiwan ignores the lobbies, unions and US government and buys more oranges anyway?

-Say that the trade deficit between the US and Taiwan has gone on for 10 years.

-Taiwan has $4000 USD in it's central bank.

-Taiwan buys $4000 worth of oranges from the US.


Effects in the US.

-The prices of oranges skyrockets in the US.

-The price of everything else goes up because of influx of USDs into circulation (inflation).

-US can't afford any more computer chips because of falling dollar.

-US standard of living falls.


Effects in Taiwan.

-Lots of cheap oranges on the market.

-Chip exporters go out of business (which is good because they were living off the tax payers anyways.).

-Taxes go down (because you don't have to pay the chip exporters anymore).

-More labour available for sectors that actually help the country.

-Taiwanese standard of living goes up.



To sum it up, "There is no such thing as a free lunch".

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2004, 02:04:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Four more years.  :rolleyes:


yea? so what?

I would be equally unimpressed with your eyerolling if it were a Kerry video of him doing the same thing
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline john9001

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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2004, 02:27:47 PM »
let me explane "debt"

if you owe the bank $100,000, the bank own's you.

if you owe the bank $100,000,000, you own the bank, they canot let you default.

Offline Hawklore

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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2004, 02:33:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Four more years.  :rolleyes:


Look at him! He was so proud of himself!
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion;
respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life." - Chief Tecumseh

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2004, 02:38:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
let me explane "debt"

if you owe the bank $100,000, the bank own's you.

if you owe the bank $100,000,000, you own the bank, they canot let you default.



Nope, ususally when you borrow money from a bank it's to make a one time investment in capital goods.  The US now relies on the bank for a continuous influx of consumer goods that raises it's standard of living, it doesn't use the money from the bank to invest in the future.  

What's more the internal economics of the banks are such that they are sustainable regardless of money owed to it by the US.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2004, 02:39:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Isn't it kinda the other way around? The US is buying all the world's crap. They should thank us :)


In other words, you should thank the welfare recipients for spending your money. ;)
sand

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2004, 02:41:57 PM »
Someone just made this arguement on another board.


"China has quite a few weapons in it's inventory.

Step 1 - China stops buying $120 bilion dollars a year and loaning them right back to us. The $120 bil. worth of yuan they used to buy dollars to support their exports they just keep paying directly to the same exporters and thus avoid immediate labor dislocation.
US dollar drops, US interest rates rise, the cost of imports increases.

Step 2. China starts getting rid of their dollar reserves - $700 billion or so. They can buy other currencies, commodities, stuff for their infrastructure, consumer goods for their population, whatever.
US dollar plummets, US interest rates skyrocket, imports become unaffordable.

Step 3. Other countries rush to get rid of their dollar holdings. Private individuals abroad rush to dump their dollars. Few trillions of dollars get dumped - into US economy or wherever they fall. Hyperinflation.
US dollar is not treated as money. No dollar loans are made at any rates. US monetary system breaks down, trade and division of labor along with it. US economy stops dead.

What was that the founding fathers were saying about indebtedness being analogous to enslavement? Better read up lest you be surprised by the behavior of the government. They have good reasons."


Who owns who?

Offline JimBear

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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2004, 03:05:02 PM »
Hows your take on the rest of the worlds state when the U.S. economy tanks in that arguement?

Offline ygsmilo

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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2004, 03:05:37 PM »
Thrawn must me miko's shade account.

Offline slimm50

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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2004, 03:10:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Why?  Because you take their products off their hands instead of them just buring them?  That doesn't do their economies any good.  The government has to buy those USDs off the exporters.  And how does the government get that money?  Taxes.

The government could just simply give the money directly to the exporters and there would be no net effect on the local economy.



 


Yeah, Iraq tried to change one of ther reserve funds into Euros and look what happened to them.  But how many wars can US fight.  

I notice your are ignoring the morallity of the situation though.  The US dug it's own hole here.  The USDs in the central banks vaults are promisary notes.  What would you think of someone that wrote you a massive IOU and then told you to go **** yourself and maybe took your house as well?  Would they be in the wrong or in the right?

Man, we really need Miko2D to weigh in on this. Sometimes I miss that guy.;)