trim, trim trim (grrrrrrrr!)

[-ammo-]

Terra--

Well, I am no super stick but the only time I really use trim to any effect is in a dive. As you know when your AC reaches high speeds the nose tends to pull up by trimming the elevater you can get the aspect of your AC corrected. In a Combat manuevering, I personally dont even try. I have in the past attempted, but to me it isn't worth the trouble.

hope this helps

[humble]

Andy,

hehe...surrender accepted ...seriously though, don't let us drive you totaly nut's.

All of us addicts are simply trying to understand our addiction. I do believe BFM has a major effect, but when you see someone in an equal E state and same plane pick up 180 degree's on you in 3 turns you do ask why.

Now, I'm the 1st to admit that some folks out think me, others outfly me and some do both (ouch). However, I've flown sims for close to 5 yrs now and am reasonably proficient in almost all area's. Now I'm parked in a T&B turn 15 ft off the deck, stall horn clacking,wep humming away working my yoyo's to correspond to the hills and valleys and watch a guy pull round on me in similiar circumstances...I'll ask HOW YOU DO THAT???...answer invariably is trim. Now you have to accept my judgement that we are co-e to start with. As an angles fighter I'm pretty good judging relative E state in end game. So I'm focusing on those "deadlocks" that occur...not midgame fights where you have an E vs angles situation still playing out.

[Lephturn]

Never under-estimate the effect that flaps and fuel will have on a fight either.    

However some planes do seem very sensitive to trim.  If you fly a 109, you better have those manual trim-keys handy, however a plane like the Jug is very tollerant of speed changes and requires very little trimming.  These are historical strengths and weaknesses of the planes, so it has a place in the game IMHO.

One trick I use when I'm low furballing is to trim the plane WITH flaps if I plan to turn with flaps.  Yep, if I plan to be crankin' and bankin' with a couple notches of flap, I'll trim the plane for that low speed with flaps popped.  (Set flaps and use Auto Trim for Speed to the desired speed.)  Then, I'll reel the flaps back in, speed up, and use manual trim to get "close" for ingress to the fight, and count the keystrokes.  As the plane slows down, I pop flaps, and slowly feed that same number of opposite trim keystrokes back in so I'm in perfectly trimmed condition for a plane at say 160 with 2 notches of flap. (Whatever you trimmed for.)  Also, try to do the initial set at the same altitude you will be fighting at, as this will make a difference.

Even if this doesn't gain you any efficiency (and I think it does), it DOES make it easier to control the plane.  Easier to control means less flight surface deflection (less drag) and better gunnery.  If you didn't plan to be turning slow with flaps, you need to use the manual trim keys to get "close".  Get a feel for how much trim you need as your plane slows to stall speed, and then you can feed in something close during the fight and be in reasonably good shape.

In a close fight, being "in trim" can save your butt, even if it's just because you are steadier and don't miss that first shot.

Now, I rarely actually do this.  I'd do it if I was heading into a 1v1 in same planes, or if I was low-alt furballing if I had time.  Normally though, I'll just learn my plane so I know roughly how much trim she'll need with speed changes and flap changes.  Once you know the plane, you can manually get it close enough to do the job.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
   

"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 07-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Argghh!!

Jamaica me crazy!!

Go here and read a pilot report on the 109...pay particular attention to the info about high speed dives and trim.
 http://hometown.aol.com/bf109gust

Once at the site, go to the 'Flying the Bf109' page.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Sparks]

Terra -
I'm a dweeb "bottom of the duelling ladder" newbie but I find the auto-trims help me a lot and I use the manual trims quite a bit also. I find it makes the aicraft MUCH easier to fly because you're not fighting it's desire to change attitude - I find the Spitfire and Mustangs particularly sensitive in pitch.
Examples:-
Before T/o I ALWAYS set my all my trims manually where I have worked out they need to be to make take off as easy as possible (for example in Spit 9 I set ailerons slightly left roll, rudder to 50% right and elevator full up).

After T/o  at about 500ft I hit ALT X to climb out at best climb speed. Once established in the climb I look at how far I'm going and set the speed using the .speed xxx command to get the climb rate / groundspeed I want - for example if I'm away from the fight and only need about 15k then I'll set the speed in a Spit 9 to about 220kts which still gives a good rate of climb but means you have some manouvreing speed on if you get bounced. If on the other hand I'm grabbing as fast as possible I'll just leave it alone.

At the top of climb in cruise I'll hit X to auto level and then throttle back to conserve fuel. This gives me good time to scan for bogies.

Now diving for a fight I'll tend to engage ALT X and set a dive speed - say 350kts but I think I'll try SHIFT X after reading this thread. This means you arrive in the fight with the aircraft as easy to fly as possible for the first manouvre.

Obviously as you start to manouvre the speed will change and the trim state will change. The main axes to change causing problems will be pitch (elevator) and roll (ailerons) - again the Spit is mega sensitve in both. So I've found my solution is to map my trim keys for pitch and roll and rudder to the number pad and stick - 8=nose up, 2=nose down, 4=rudder left, 6=rudder right, button to left of hat on stick=roll left and button to right of hat=roll right (stick is Saitek Cyborg). This works for me because my view keys are on my hat on the stick but I still use "5" on the number pad for the "Up" look. What this all means is my hand is hovered over the number pad and I can change trim and views very easily.
Soooooo - in a fight the speed will change - as it does you will find it more difficult to maintain the aircraft flying where you want it without major stick inputs to correct out of trim forces (roll and pitch) - this is particularly noticeable if you get into a slowing turn, climb or steep dive. So then you manually trim to get the stick back in the middle - I find for instance that as I wind into a turn in a spit I will trim back and back as the speed falls and if I dive hard I will feed in right aileron to keep things straight.
The one I don't bother with in combat is the rudder and I can see now that I urgently need some rudder pedals because being out of trim in Yaw (rudder) is THE biggest energy loser and turn limiter. However you just can't keep the ball in the middle (on slip gauge) using the keypad because it changes so fast and I find the twist grip on the stick next to useless.

If I happen to live and want to leave a fight I pick a point to shallow dive for and set up the dive. I then use SHIFT X to fly away and relax.

I also use SHIFT X a lot in bombers to do the return to base - throttle back a bit when clear of the target and dive to achieve say 1000 ft/min rate of descent and hit SHIFT X  - that gives you 10 mins of easy descent at good speed to lose 10,000ft enroute to landing and gives you the freedom to hop round the gunner positions to check for enemy (just don't go into tail gunner postion as it goes to level while you're in the tail - don't know why)

As a dweeb I often lose track of what I'm doing in a furball - particularly after a couple of B&Z passes and then I'll break away, fly level for a moment, engage X to set trims for level flight then immediately break out - at least I know then the trims will be somewhere near - a start point if you like.

Hope this helps Terra

Sparks

[Vati66]

Ok I am green as grass in this sim so I have to ask alot of questions of you all.  First off, I know about the Auto pilot modes: Auto level, auto climb, auto angle.  But what is auto trim?  and is there a way to set somthing like a macro for trim setting for differint situations?

thanks

Vati

[Vati66]

oh  one more then,  is there a Downloadable manual for ACES that I have missed somewhere?

Vati

------------------
Good luck and Good hunting
[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~spitfiremk9/eagle.gif[img]

[terracota]

ufff too mouch stuff I will try to first get confortable with angle-trim them ...
thanks to all .
Sparks , I will try this things you say and yes we need urgently a rudder pedals, to fly this game. now watch what I use to fly this game:
no rudder pedals
a 2 button joystick   (one of those that you can use it just 3 months them is crap)
I do everything with my keyboard because the 2 buttons of joy now are bussy with the shot actions  
maybe this is why I dont have founded the real use of trim , because I have my hands to bussy with flying viewing throling , etc
God I need a thirt hand  .

[Lephturn]

Vati66:

Check out the page I mentioned at the top of the thread:

I have an article here on Auto Trim and some examples of how to use it.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/trim.htm


The game help resides on the web site, and is linked from in the game.  If you want to check it out offline, just start at HTC's web site.  http://www.hitechcreations.com/  Select the Help link on the navigation bar on the left side.


------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[-ammo-]

HI vati66, here is   Indians manual, haven't checked to see if its up to date. But remember iot to be very good. I hope Indian does't get mad at me

[Toad]

I'm with Andy on this. In RL trim is a workload issue. That little (relatively) trim tab doesn't supply some large, magic amount of force that will let you gain angles on your mis-trimmed brothers. Full control authority is available even when you are mis-trimmed, assuming you're a big studly guy that can pull the stick to its limit.

It's true that back then stick forces could be much higher than they are now with our 3000psi boosted controls, so trim could be a "fatigue" issue if the fight got long. But don't forget the adrenaline factor either.

In the game, as in WB you do have to trim correctly for max performance. There's some reason for this in the FM, of course. It's just the way it is here, so accept it and trim.
 

[easymo]

Toad. Are you saying after all the snide comments about easymode dweebs, in WB. That easymode is a more realistic FM.

[Toad]

Easymo,

First allow me to clear one thing up:

I am NOT the WB Toad. So if he made any comments about Easymode, it was some other guy. I was Toad in AW way back in early DOS version days. I had to be TOED in WB because my squad was late to move to WB. I got here first though! (I suspect he has beat me to WW2Online though.)

Now, to the point.

No, what I am saying is that TRIM is not a PRIMARY FLIGHT CONTOL in any airplane. That may not sound very deep or OTOH it may be confusing to some.

Basically, what I'm saying is that you don't "fly" the airplane with trim. You don't go rolling down the runway and then put in a bunch of trim to rotate. (Although that CAN be done, it's not real efficient nor is it an approved procedure.) You rotate with the stick, holding backpressure and THEN you trim out the stick force to hold the particular climb speed or angle that you desire. This allows you to pretty much leave the airplane alone while you do other stuff, like reconfigure the aircraft or talk on the radio or check your map or tune the nav aids.

THIS is what Andy was talking about when he said relieves the pilot workload.

The other main point to remember is that 99% of your control authority is available even when your are way out of trim. When you move the elevator to the "up" stop, you are getting all there is to give, essentially, even if the trim tab is not correctly trimmed. Most trim tabs are just a small fraction of the size of the control surface that they trim.

I think (don't know) that the game FM's use trim as primary flight controls. I remember someone saying, for example, that our autopilot actually works through the trim coding. I believe that may be correct. You can be in level flight, put in one tap of trim and get a 1500 FPM rate of climb as a result. That's not trim, that's a flight control. One "dit" or 1/2 turn of trim might give you 50-200 FPM or so realistically.

Hope this helps explain what I said.

[easymo]

 Reread my post. I did not mean to single out toad ( either one  ). I was commenting on the antieasymode, player posts that started with the opening of the ACA. And still continue, on AGW.

 I know nothing about real aircraft. And am forced to rely on RL pilots for info. I will say, I have wondered about this. Ive looked at alot of WW2 fighters down at the galveston field. I was very supprised to see how small the trim tabs were. considering the effect they have in both WB and AH.

 I dont object, If this is done just to make the game more interesting. In the end. Keeping the plane in trim during a fight is more fun. It keeps things from getting boreing.

 But What you posted has got to make some of the, realsim at all cost, boys stop and think.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Toad

Good post. Better said than mine.

easymo

The 'realism' thing is always going to be an issue, I think. For some, it's like the Holy Grail...out there somewhere, but never found.

Sometimes, we seem to lose sight of the 'fun' in our attempt to recreate a RL atmosphere. All the talk about 'immersion' and 'suspension of disbelief' can be counter-productive. No better example is the state of the sim business at present. We may have contributed to the downsizing of the air combat sim genre by our ever-present demand for greater levels of 'realism'.

In some ways I see one person's 'realism' as another's gimmick. Some padlock or external views come to mind. In AH, auto-trim modes do also...WW2 aircraft had no such feature, and to have some pilots advocating using these during an engagement is, from a 'realism' viewpoint, downright silly.

In this regard, part of me says 'no problem'. If that is what brings fun to the sim for some, then fine. BUT...if that feature in fact provides a competitive edge, then I think we've gone too far.

Why? To begin with, the added performance aspects of the feature is not discussed in the sim documentation...so how are people supposed to learn about it? Are we playing "I've Got A Secret"...the cool guys know and the dweebs don't? Then, as Toad said, the aero effects have been over-modeled...to the detriment of realism. Lastly is the fact that pilots don't use trim in this manner in RL anyway...if they don't, why should we in a sim?

And so the debate goes on...! Personally, my vote is for a sim that puts its money on superior graphics, a comprehensive set of views, rock-solid multi-player, and a reasonable flight model...I'll not get too concerned about the 'realism'. Realism is for RL...our hobby is just for fun.

Andy