Author Topic: looping fights  (Read 1668 times)

Offline artoo

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looping fights
« on: November 28, 2000, 04:42:00 PM »
Whenever anyone comes charging at me with a Head On engagement I always avoid it (first gaining as much speed as I can) with a pull up before guns range and start searching for him over my shoulder.  So far so good, but this often leads to a looping fight and he who loops tighter and/or holds E longer wins.
Some of these I win and some I lose, but I hate them all.  What can I do to break this nasty cycle, preferably early, without giving the advantage to nme?

Offline SKurj

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looping fights
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2000, 05:33:00 PM »
Instead of looping try a low g pullup into a zoom
If u have more energy than your opponent, when he loops you will zoom higher possibly permitting you to rope him.
I find this work ALOT +)

AKSKurj

Offline Jekyll

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looping fights
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2000, 02:22:00 AM »
Depends on the aircraft you are flying Skurj.  A situation I ALWAYS hate to get myself into is this.

Both aircraft merge roughly Co-E.  Your opponent goes immediately into a looping maneuver, while you extend a little and then go into a low G zoom, gaining maybe a thousand feet alt advantage.

But in the meantime your opponent has already completed his half loop, has levelled off and is rebuilding his airspeed.

You approach headon again, but with your opponent 1000 feet below.  As you approach the merge, he does a vertical lead turn while you are still low on airspeed and unable to go vertical to evade, leaving him camped on your 6 at close range.

Probably the best advice on the co-E merge came from Robert 'Mouse' Shaw at a WB convention recently.  When asked how he handled a co-E fight he is reputed to have replied, "Why the #$%# would you want to engage co-E?"

Offline Lephturn

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looping fights
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2000, 07:01:00 AM »
LOL Jekyll.

Artoo,

Pulling up before guns range is very dangerous IMHO.  If you mis-judge his E state he can just zoom up under you and gun your bellybutton down.  I avoid the HO as well, but normally I do it a bit different.  I make sure I get my speed up and I'll dive a bit to come in beneath his nose slightly.  I'll do some evasive starting about D 1.3 and transition that into a vertical lead turn, a slightly oblique immelman, as he hits D500-300.  I'll then come over the top as gently as I need to depending on my plane and E and how hard the other guy reverses.

Now comes the hard part.  If the other fellow is close in E and is a good pilot, he will likely have done the same thing, so we'll tend to be looking at what could be another HO situation.  What you do here is critical.  If you do not have enough speed to go vertical again, you must press for the shot if he has made it to your altitude.  Preferably you want to hit him before he gets all the way around and can shoot you.  Alternately, you will have turned a bit slower but conserved more E, so you can manage another vertical move.  The trick now is to avoid this second front quarter engagement and go vertical again.  If you avoid his shot he will have dropped his nose too much to shoot you, and you own him.  I normally try to get slightly out of plane with the bogey at this point, to one side and banked slightly to keep him from lining up too easily.  Ideally you have more E at this point and he'll wallow below you for an easy kill.  DO NOT take the HO shot at the second merge if you have the E to go up, unless you beat him by a lot and he can't shoot back yet.  If you try for the front shot and miss, you will have given up enough of your E and angle advantage that you will be in serious trouble.  Remember, whenever you take a HO shot, you give up position and E to the guy that does not take it.  If you are going to take the HO it should be your last option and you'd better not miss.

I know it's tough to avoid the HO at the top of that oblique immelman fight, but you've got to resist shooting back and avoid if you have more E.  Instead of firing at him or lining up your pass, you should be building a bit of speed and getting out of plane a bit, making read for that next vertical move that he can't follow.

SKurj's advice is also good.  In the P-47 that I fly, I use the low-G pull-up into a zoom depending on the situation.  If I have enough of an E advantage that I can burn some and still be ok, I'll do as I explained above.  If not, I'll do what Skurj describes.

BTW, the initial merge is a very good indicator of the caliber of the pilot you are facing.  If the guy you merge with tries the below-the nose evasive and vertical lead turn just as you do, it's time to start worrying. <G>  Better yet, you had better be thinking 3 moves ahead, because the other guy might be.  If the enemy dives at you and goes for the HO and then overshoots below you before reversing, it screams newbie.  Proceed as normal and he should be an easy kill.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"A pig is a jolly companion,
Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale,
Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you,
When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover,
You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!"
-- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Offline Spatula

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looping fights
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2000, 05:59:00 PM »
A third, and more conservative approach, is if you doubt your E is co or better and your flying E tactics is just not to engage the enemy. Line him up for the HO on your 2 or 10 OC and then do a lead turn (about D1.2)into him and below his nose, turn till you pass under his nose then go slight nose low and and widthdraw (you want to pass as close to him as safley possible to avoid giving him any lead turn advantage). He has to turn 180 degrees before he can chase you giving you time to get seperation. Works well in the mustang cause it has the speed to make this work (g10, yak, tiffie would be good too).

Then if he's in a slower plane, get at least D3 seperation and start a very slight climb wihtout getting slower than him (ie he aint catching you up). This should let you build an E advantage - then you can attack with a garenteed E advantage  

Why give your enemy a fair fight?
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline Lephturn

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looping fights
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2000, 06:49:00 AM »
Right on Spat.

I think somebody quoted Robert "Mouse" Shaw as saying the following when asked about a co-E engagement:  "Why the F* would you ever want to engage co-E?"

Indeed.  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
"A pig is a jolly companion,
Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale,
Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you,
When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover,
You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!"
-- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Luke Skywalker

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looping fights
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2000, 08:37:00 AM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by Spatula:
A third, and more conservative approach, is if you doubt your E is co or better and your flying E tactics is just not to engage the enemy. Line him up for the HO on your 2 or 10 OC and then do a lead turn (about D1.2)into him and below his nose, turn till you pass under his nose then go slight nose low and and widthdraw (you want to pass as close to him as safley possible to avoid giving him any lead turn advantage). He has to turn 180 degrees before he can chase you giving you time to get seperation. Works well in the mustang cause it has the speed to make this work (g10, yak, tiffie would be good too).

I have to admit that I dont understand what you say... maybe I misunderstand the "lead turn" concept...can someone explain it in detail?...

or even better, a graphic of that move would be helpful.


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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
   

   


[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 11-30-2000).]

Offline Lephturn

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looping fights
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2000, 11:49:00 AM »
Hmmm, maybe Andy will stop by with the graphics.    Meantime I'll see what I can do with words.

Simply put a lead turn is a turn that you start before "lead" the bandit passes you to give you a head start in getting around onto his tail.  To set it up we are talking about two fighters heading at each other roughly.  If I want to set up a lead turn I need to do a couple of things, I need to start turning as early as I can, and start the turn with the right ammount of separation.

First the timing issue.  If I start my turn too early, the other guy will see me and can either shoot me as I turn in front of him, or adjust his course to end up on MY tail.  So I have to start my lead turn at a point that it's too late for him to shoot me, but before he has passed my plane going the other way.  It just takes practice to get it right, but the basic idea is to start turning earlier so you can get to his tail faster.

The second part of the equasion is separation, or spacing.  My goal is to get right on his tail.  Now lets assume for a minute that the enemy is just going to keep flying straight as we pass.  If I pass right next to him as I start turning 180 degrees to get to his tail, when I have completed the 180 I will be facing the same direction but displaced to one side, the diameter of my turning circle.  What I want to do to end my 180 turn right on his six is to start the turn 1 turning diameter away from him so that I end my 180 right on the same flight path as he is on.  If I've done it right, I'll be very close to his tail.

Now the other fellow is going to turn as well, but the same rules still apply.  You want the right ammount of separation and start your turn as early as possible.  If you do that, you will turn onto his tail the fastest.  Of course, if you merge with me, I am going to try to pass very close to you so that you don't get that separation and will have to turn that extra bit to get on my tail.

I'll poke around for some graphics and links and add them later if I can.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
"A pig is a jolly companion,
Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale,
Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you,
When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover,
You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!"
-- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Offline Andy Bush

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looping fights
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2000, 08:29:00 AM »
Luke

Here are some figures from my BFM articles at SimHQ.

 
 
 

These figures are explained in the 'It's All A Matter Of Perspective' series which can be found in the Air Combat Corner at www.simhq.com.  This series goes into basic BFM terminology in detail and discusses these from a flight sim point of view.

Any questions, let me know!

Andy



[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 12-01-2000).]

Offline BaneX

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looping fights
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2000, 08:45:00 AM »
Man Andy we have got to get together for a beer or something. I'm sure you coul help me improve my flying by about 400%  


Bane
13th TAS

Luke Skywalker

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looping fights
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2000, 09:07:00 AM »
WOAH thanks a lot!!!

Lephturn, you described it pretty well, after seeing the pictures I know I got it right  

Andy, I just read the two first articles you have posted on SimHQ about Boom and zoom...(the first has no link but I figured out its URL   )...

and they rule...I'm about to read the third one  

Thanks a lot!!!!

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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
   

 

[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 12-01-2000).]

Offline blur

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looping fights
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2000, 09:32:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jekyll:

<snip>
You approach headon again, but with your opponent 1000 feet below.  As you approach the merge, he does a vertical lead turn while you are still low on airspeed and unable to go vertical to evade, leaving him camped on your 6 at close range.
<snip>


I don't like doing it but I've found that the safest move in this situation, especially against the N1K2, is to pull back down into the bogey to reduce lateral separation.