Author Topic: t34  (Read 2235 times)

Offline Reschke

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t34
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2004, 10:52:22 AM »
If you guys would read up on the history of the T-34 a little you would see that against the German panzers it was outclassed in a 1 vs 1 tank battle primarily due to the range of the guns and the armor. However if you look at the Soviet armor doctrine for warfare you would notice that it wasn't necessarily a quality sort of thing. Seeing as how quantity has a quality all its own in warfare and if you can't kill 'em all then eventually you are going to loose.
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2004, 11:07:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Reschke
If you guys would read up on the history of the T-34 a little you would see that against the German panzers it was outclassed in a 1 vs 1 tank battle primarily due to the range of the guns and the armor.

That depends on the year.  In 1941, which our T-34 is a fine sub for, it is more than a fair fight for any German tank.  By the time the L48 gun on our Panzer IV H shows up though, things have changed.  The Panzer IV F from 1942 would be a fairly even match, but the Panzer IV H is much better.  The T-34/85 is a fair match for the Panzer IV H.
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Offline emodin

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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2004, 11:29:38 AM »
I tend to agree with Karnak.  Another point of interest is that the T-34/85 did not show up until AFTER the battle of Kursk, at a time when the Germans were already fielding Tigers and early model Panthers.  Basically, the Soviets had a better tank in the beginning of the war (T-34), but it was few in numbers and too spread out along the front to have any significant impact in the early fighting.  

As to the T-34 in AH, I have noticed a tendency of tank rounds to bounce off or not penetrate the T-34's armor even at close ranges (including those made on side hull shots).  In one engagement, my T-34 took an enemy T-34 under fire at literally point-blank range, and neither of us were able to get any damage done to the other.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2004, 11:35:08 AM »
As far as I can tell, T34 vs T34 at any range will see the rounds bounce off the front turret and front armor.  

T34 vs Panzer IV is tilted towards the Panzer IV - it has a gun good enough that the bullets don't deflect off the front as often (although they'll still ricochet off the front turret more often than not), and the rate of fire is about twice as fast as the T34.  

Tiger vs T34 is a complete one sided affair, the T-34 has no chance.  I was able to disable the Tigers gun by closing to about 15 feet and hitting the rear turret twice, it was unable to penetrate the rear and side hull armor at any range.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2004, 12:16:21 PM »
There were thousands of T34s when the Germans invaded. But between poor deployment and the weaknesses of the vehicle the germans were able to over come them.
The T34 sounds like it has too much frontal armour. The 43 It shoudl be able to kill itself frontaly at 500 -1000 yards with out much trouble. The combination of not being able to see out of the vehicle and not having a radio are increadble force dividers. The germans had fewer and weaker tanks. Applied in concetrated attacks that could see and comunicate to manuver. Increadbale force multipliers.

The driver should absolutly not be able to raise his head out the top hatch like he can in a Panzer. The vehicle had no roof hatch for the driver and no lifting seat. If it can do that they should absolutly remove it. The only way for the driver to improve is view is to open up a square meter of the front armour. This is a fundimental design sacrifice of the balistic shape and relativly low weight of the T34 series. All he gets is the peep holes. Unless he wants to basically remove the upper glacis plate.

The tiger 1 should be able to do this but cannot in the game for some reason.

The tank should also not have the flexibility to arrange its ammo like the tank in the game can. The combinations were very limited and really really stressed HE over AP. They went to war with 20% AP maximum I think I read once.

The turrent travers seems very very generous. The Panzer IVH should have a faster turrent traverse then any T34 pre T34-85.

here is what our tank looks like if you try to give the driver a better view.
this is a very real disadvantage of the tank and should be modeled by resticting the ablity to raise the head position.




Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2004, 12:49:49 PM »
No, not what I meant.  Even if it does no damage, a flat hit doesn't bounce off or away.
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Offline SpiveyCH

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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2004, 01:18:53 PM »
T-34 Medium Tank
The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, and in September 1940 T-34 was put into series production mounting a 76mm gun. The Model 1940, the first T-34 production variant, t was armed with the L-11 76.2 mm gun, which was considerably shorter than the subsequent F-34 76.2 mm main gun of the 1941 and later models. The mantlet was also round in contrast to the more square mantlets of later models. The tank's main advantage was its simple design which made it easy to mass produce and repair. The T-34 was also small and comparibaly light, while the tank's water-cooled diesel engine minimized the danger of fire and increased the tank's the radius of action. The design overcame the technological superiority of German forces during the Great Patriotic War. Built in Ukraine in the Kharkov Steam-Engine Factory (KhPZ), the German general von Runstedt called the T-34 the "best tank in the world" and von Kleist said it was the "finest in the world." The T-34 had a more powerful cannon than German tanks, a higher top speed (32 MPH versus 25 MPH), and superior sloped armor and superior welded construction. However, the German Tiger and Panther tanks outranged the T34's original 76mm gun, and subsequently a 85mm gun was mounted on a T-34 tank. The T-34/85 was a modification of the T-34 equipped with a more powerful armor and cannon. T-34/85 had a flatter turret which gave this already inovative tank design the look that all tanks adopted after the wars end. Although not equal to the German Panther and Tiger tanks, the huge numbers of T-34s more than compensated for their technological shortcomings.

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Offline SpiveyCH

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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2004, 01:26:59 PM »
PONGO

Think you may be wrong about the top hatch.  Looked at many pictures of the T34 that had the top hatch open.  There were even captured T34's that the germans used.  One had a cross on the hatch  door with a guy standing in it, looking out.
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Offline Stratocaster

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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2004, 01:29:53 PM »
looks like it has a periscope out of the top? is that the reason for the view?
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2004, 01:41:25 PM »
I am talking about a hull roof hatch for the driver that would allow him to raise his head for a good view while driving. There was no such thing.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 01:43:36 PM by Pongo »

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2004, 01:44:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, not what I meant.  Even if it does no damage, a flat hit doesn't bounce off or away.

What do you mean  by a "flat hit"?

There really isn't an easy way to obtain such a thing against the T-34.
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2004, 01:45:48 PM »
Longer range, plunging shot. less slope protection.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2004, 02:44:47 PM »
There was a T34 broadside to me.  I knocked his left track out and when he dipped down his armor became almost flat to me.

I was aiming and no matter where I hit it would penetrate.  I found an exact spot that would change the bounce from up to down, from left to right.  So if I hit dead center it's armor wouldn't mean anything.


Of course, rounds coming in almost perpindicular even off by a few degrees should still penetrate.
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2004, 03:09:19 PM »
would or would not penetrate?

Offline Zanth

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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2004, 03:24:11 PM »
use arrow keys to modify driver position, you can then see fine.  As for "anti-air capability" in any tank, that is an Aces High invention - not a product of history.  It does seem unfair to only punish the Russians in the modeling though.