Any NWA employees here?

[Dago]

Originally posted by Toad

As to airline pilot pay.... have you ever gotten the training and experience required, applied to the majors, competed with 30,000 other guys and got hired, done the job and lived the life for a few years? If so, I'll listen to you. Otherwise, I'll just tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Matter of fact, yes, I have licenses and ratings in my pocket.  Also an A&P.

Lets see, about 250 hrs logged time will get you comm, mel, inst.  Well less than half of that is training time.  So, lets be generous and say, 125 hours documented training time to get in the right seat.  After that, you can be paid to fly.   During that paid time, you are now making money.   Get to 1500hrs being paid to do what you enjoy, you take the ATP ride.  Now you can be captain, maybe you are up to, 150 hrs training you have paid for, plus the additional training your company will have paid you to attend on thier operation and aircraft,  Paid to attend.  

Oh, very terrible so far.  Give me a break.

Gee, almost equal to the many years Doctors go to school and serve internship, right Toad?  Hardly.

Went to college?  So what, it's not a requirement, just a preference some airlines have, and here is a shocker, not all airline pilots have degrees.

So, FAA requires at most 150 hrs documented training (acutally much lower number is closer to the truth), with another 100 hrs logged time to get paid to fly.  

To get an A&P requires nearly 1700 hrs documented training.  Why Toad, that is a lot more than a pilot, so I guess the A&P should make 10x more than the pilot?   His work is performed on the same equipment, he has the responsiblity for the same lives resting on the quality of professionalism of his work.  Surely you must agree.  And most A&Ps will have worked at low paying jobs for tiny crappy outfits before they get hired by a major airline, so same route gaining experience.

But hey, it is so tough being an airline pilot.  Lets review the challenge:

1) Show up for work
2) Find your flight plan laid out for you by dispatch
3) Your fuel load already determined by dispatch
4) Your weight and balance will be done for you by load control
5) Your logbooks reviewed and ready for you by maintenance
6) Your walkaround is done by the F/O
7) The passengers handled by the gate agents and the F/As, you sit in your seat and informed when they are ready.
8) Your F/O will work the radios for you
9) You taxi out, takeoff, and by 1000ft, you are on autopilot
10) The F/A serves you food and coffee
11) A/P flys the airplane until 1000ft before landing.
12) You land, taxi in, everyone gets off, and you rest from such a difficult job
13) Repeat a few more times this day, and wait for the the widebody slot that means you only have one takeoff and land once a day, for one week a month

Spend the rest of the month at home telling your family you are a God, and worrying over your expanding stock portfolio.

A few nods to the downsides, must keep healthy to maintain a medical, must pass competency checkrides on a regular basis, must stay in a hotel away from the family on a regular basis.

These aren't really all that horrible when you consider the downsides other people face in their line of employment.

And as pointed out in your post, an airline pilot isn't exactly a needle in a hay stack, advertise for pilots and you can form a line 6 miles long with applicants with the tickets in the pocket.

So, please stay off the high horse Toad,  it aint that rough.

dago

[oboe]

Originally posted by Lazerus
Unions are ruining America. The idea, at first, was great, and needed. Unions now are bloated and cost the American people more than they give...

Time to update your knowledge Lazerus.    Union membership has been declining steadily since the 1950s, and in 2003 less than 13% of all wage and salary workers were members of unions:    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2004/jan/wk3/art03.htm

I think labor unions were one of the driving forces behind the creation of the middle class in this country.   (And nope, I'm not a union member and never have been).   But I recognize their importance as a counterbalance to the exploitation of labor in the early part of the last century.     In some cases, I think they were TOO successful and became a detriment to the industry in which they were so powerful (e.g. airlines and auto mfg).    But I don't think that's the case in the majority.     The positive benefits of unions are a well-paid, well-trained quality workforce.   I would much rather work in a building built by union workers than one built by untrained, poorly paid construction workers hired off the street, wouldn't you?

Globalization and the offshore outsourcing it encourages is one of the answers you seek to driving wages, salaries and benefits downward for workers.   But I'd be careful what you wish for.    In my experience the cost savings realized by offshoring is simply paid out to senior executives as bonuses rather than passed on to  the customer.
 
I think your desire for a medium that reaches a balance between labor cost and benefits and keeps the US competitive shows reason and patriotism on your part.    But I fear Free Market + workforce globalization  = end of the American middle class.   Like you, I don't have any ideas, though I approved of Kerry's plan to at least stop giving tax breaks to corporations that offshore US jobs.     There is just no way to compete with a foreign worker who will work for 10% or less of your salary, and there is no way to stop the frothing at the mouth this produces in greedy corporate executives.   I fear we are headed for the kind of society depicted in the first "ROBOCOP" movie.

[Toad]

Lovely scenario, Dago, except that's not how it works and, if you really are familiar with the business, you know it.

So, FAA requires at most 150 hrs documented training (acutally much lower number is closer to the truth), with another 100 hrs logged time to get paid to fly

I've always said it's easiest to let people show their lack of.... understanding... with their own keyboards. As you did with that statement.

Currently, my son has a high school buddy that's gone the "civilian route". He got an aviation degree at an aviation college with his Commercial, Instrument, MEL and Instructor ratings in all of those. He spent a huge amount of money doing that. Since that time, he's worked as an Instructor to build time, making a pittance. To build his multi time, he actually had to pay an outfit that flies cancelled checks around at midnight to the Fed Reserve to let him fly right seat. Now he's flying left seat for them and making about $1200 a month.

You idea of getting "paid to fly" with a few hundred hours under your belt is not realistic and leads me, once again, to believe you don't have any idea what you are talking about. In fact, you "scenario" as to how one gets to the ATP level shows how little you know about the current situation and what went before. Perhaps a few guys like Cit or Frenchy will drop by here and clue you as well.

Had a good friend go to work for a Commuter; this guy flew fighters in the AF but didn't get enough time for the magic ATP. He paid $18,000 for the right seat training in their Beech 1900. They hired him, of course, he's an excellent stick and person. His pay the first year?  $16,000. Second year? $18,000. Again, you have no knowledge.

When I applied, if you didn't have 2500 hours +, you weren't even in the game. (Holden, that's where the supply/demand curve skews; the major airlines, the ones that (used to) actually pay well have very high requirements. They may have 30K applicants, but there are many like Dago that think a few hundred hours qualify them for the job.) Beyond that, at the time I got hired, 90% + of successful applicants were military pilots. Being a military pilot meant you had about 6 years of full time flying experience in turbojet aircraft.

Your litany of what the job requires also shows you haven't done it. In fact, it's typical of a mechanics view of pilots. Let me guess... you are IAM for NW?

Much of the work is routine. Much of it is not; ever hand-flown 727 through a CatII in a blinding snowstorm into SLC and landed on a runway with "poor" braking action? No, I bet you haven't. Ever gone into mile-high Denver on a hot summer day and dealt with the windshear they are famous for? No, I bet you haven't.

Lastly, everyone likes to focus on that "high pay" those pilots get. The numbers posted are almost always produced by using the most senior pilots flying the largest equipment. When I hired on at DAL in 1980, I got $900/month for the first year. It took me four years to reach the annual pay that I had given up as a Captain in the Air Force.

So, again, if you ever really delve into the subject and learn someting about it....rather than just relying on the superficial knowledge the mass media puts out, let me know. Until then, best for you to stay out of the stable; you apparently can't tell the horses from the barn cats.

I think there's a few guys around the board pursuing a professional pilot career. Maybe they'll stop by and you can tell them how easy and how well paid it is.

[Dago]

Toad, do you guys all get that speil off an ALPA  website?

No, I am not in the IAM.  Nice try at trying to belittle me to show you are better.  Typical pilot.

Yes, I have spent time in a cockpit jumpseat and have observed many flight ops, narrow and wide body, domestic and international flights.  I have a clue what is required of the pilot.

I also worked in our Systems Operations Control.  

Yes, I know plenty of friends who choose to fly for a living, and many ended up in the left seat of an airline.  I know of their challenges in getting there.  Big freaking deal, stop feeling sorry for yourself.  

Do you think other jobs don't have challenges???  Do you think most career people dont pay a lot of dues to get where they want to be????

Grab a slice of reality pie and take a view of the real world, everyone works hard and pays dues, working long hours for not enough money to become a success.  They don't necessarily run their companies into near bankruptcy doing it.

Pilots are overpaid, period.  The route to that seat isn't all that much harder than most other careers.

It is a good think I am not running an airline, or the pilots would find themselves flying for a lot less, and excercising a lot less control.

dago

[Habu]

Aviation is ripe for explotation.

Young hungry pilots will fly for practically free. The big airlines all have unions and senority that effectively shuts out most new pilots from ever hopeing to get a job that pays well with them. In times of downsizing they are not hireing.

So new carriers will arise that do not have unions. They may start as charter or freight only but eventually they will start to fly passengers and because their costs are lower they will make money when big airlines can't.

In a deregulated environment that is the natural process. Only regulations and laws can stop it from occuring.

[Toad]

Dago, I'll be glad to discuss this further for a bit longer. I do have a pressing engagement however.

First though... jump seat rider, eh? Jump seat access is rather limited by FAA rules.

Why don't you tell us all just what position you hold at NWA?

Secondly, a simple question. Doing this job you have at NWA, do you consider yourself overpaid?

Thanks in advance.


Habu, nice theory but have you checked Southwest's pay rates? Their annual salary is very competitive (in fact it probably exceeds the majors now) with the majors and they've been profitable for 31 of their 32 years.

LIke everything else, people look for a scapegoat. Blaming pilot pay is the "easy out" and excuses folks from looking at the true systemic problems the majors created for themselves.

[Dago]

Toad, I don't jumpseat anymore.

As you know, it's an uncomfortable seat.  I prefer first (business) class.

But, I worked for a time out of our flight ops dept, and held a jumpseat authorization card signed by VP Flight Ops.  That was pre-9/11.  I have changed positions since.  I used to grab the jumpseat to avoid bumping a pax.  Now, if it comes to that, I just wait for another flight.  

Jumpseating now requires a high up authorization, and isn't worth the trouble to get it.  On business I can ride positive space coach, and prefer that for domestic rides.  International, I just book space avail business class, and book carefully.

I don't care to get into anymore of this pissing match to be honest.  My opinion won't change, I think pilots are overpaid.  Your opinion won't change, you have tasted the greed and decided you are entitled.  

So, I will let it go at that.  

Hope your health issues are resolved and you get back on your feet soon.

dago

[Toad]

So, what you are really saying it that you don't want to tell us what you did for Flight Ops and you don't want to tell us what you do now.

Nor do you want to offer an opinion on whether or not you are overpaid in your job.

I'm not suprised.

Greed? Hardly. You need to look at Management if you want to see raw, unadulterated greed.

Entitled? Earned.

[Dago]

So, what you are really saying it that you don't want to tell us what you did for Flight Ops and you don't want to tell us what you do now.  

To be honest, I prefer to maintain a reasonable amount of anonimity on these boards.  I wouldn't mind telling you in an email, but I choose not to post a whole lot of personal info online.

Do I think I am or have been overpaid?  No, but then I am not making a pilots salary, if I was, I would think so.

I agree about upper Management as I have already stated about CEOs in this country.

dago

[talliven]

Guess im another one of those "overpaid airline pilots"  Seeing as im now in my 5th year with an airline and still haven't made in all 5 yrs combined what it cost to get my ratings.  I built my time the civilian route (flight instructor).  And if you think making 12-15k a year for 3 yrs working approximately 360 days out of the yrs is enjoyable, feel free to become a flight instructor any time.

As for pay rates, do you realize a Southwest pilot has a higher pay rate than an American 737 pilot with same senoirity.  But then again AA is one of those "dinosaurs"  that isn't bleeding to death quite so fast anymore.

[Dago]

Originally posted by talliven
Guess im another one of those "overpaid airline pilots"  Seeing as im now in my 5th year with an airline and still haven't made in all 5 yrs combined what it cost to get my ratings.  I built my time the civilian route (flight instructor).  And if you think making 12-15k a year for 3 yrs working approximately 360 days out of the yrs is enjoyable, feel free to become a flight instructor any time.

As for pay rates, do you realize a Southwest pilot has a higher pay rate than an American 737 pilot with same senoirity.  But then again AA is one of those "dinosaurs"  that isn't bleeding to death quite so fast anymore.

I dont count commuter pilots, or the regionals either when you get down to it.  

When did anyone tell you that you will return your investment in your career quickly?  If someone told you that, they were misleading you, and you were not to bright to believe it.

So, if it is bad, why are you still at it?  Because you hope to get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and it is a very good job when you compare it to what others do for a living.

How about comparing wages and work rules for JetBlue pilots against the majors?  

You might find it differant, and guess what?  They are more profitable.  Hmmm, lets see if we can find a possibility that might help explain that.

Could it be that they might be profitable because their pilots aren't bleeding them dry???  Hmmmmmmmmmm

dago

[Dnil]

yikes dago, kinda loose on how it really works as a pilot.  

Starting eagle pay, 1600 a month.  Starting cfi pay where I fly is 15 bucks a FLIGHT hour.  The big bucks only come into long term captain slots.  If anything the vast majority of pilots are underpaid.  Considering the responsibilty they carry with each flight.  How many lives does a 747 captian have in his hands?  Do you want a pissed off pilot making 20k a year doing that?  

Toad can tell you, Airline guys spend a ton of time away from home and long days, most of it unpaid.

EDIT:  Most of us do it with no visions of a huge paycheck, I do it because I love to fly.  I worked office space type jobs and hated it, made prolly 4 times what I could as a cfi.

[Golfer]

I'm going to chime in here since I'm feeling Dago has some burr up his rear and I'd like to shove it a little further up there.

First off, 21 years old...Commercial Pilot, Single & Multiengine Land, Instrument Airplane.  I have around 550TT, 110 Multi, 120 Instrument.  I fly Traffic reports, jump planes and any ferry flight I can get my hands on.  All for pay.  I refuse to fly for free so a business can get off the hook by giving me 'experience.'  The best advice I've recieved came from Director of Ops at my Insurance company's flight department (Where I want to end up flying CL-604s and HS-125s) was don't be a potato to the industry.  Pilots are professional, like it or not.  Don't let anyone short change your hard work and effort by letting them think they can use it for their advantage in saving a dime.

Second, I paid for around 250 of the 350 hrs I had when I got my commercial ticket.  Dago thinking that an automatic 250 hrs = commercial ticket is off.  I went the part 61 route.  I earned my private ticket while working as an Insurance adjuster and weekends at the airport working line service.  I use rental airplanes to get around from A to B, a Mooney M20J is my preferred airplane.

I figured that I spent over $30,000 ($15,000 student loan, $15,000 out of pocket) on all my ratings to this point.  I could be making piles of money for my age settling auto claims but who has a passion for that?  Looking at how much I am getting paid now to fly...I won't be 'in the black' anytime soon.  I'm working now at landing my first 'real' flying job (Traffic Reports and Parachute Drops are gigs, not jobs) and it isn't easy.  I have my aspirations in the corporate aviation world, ideally the insurance company (Which has 3 jets, 10 pilots and is a model for any flight department) and not the airlines.  I have a ways to go, am short on multi and turbine time and have no idea how to get it.

Dago, next time you want to badmouth any professional pilots, they all worked very hard to get where they are.  They're skilled labor, and are responsible for millions of people every day being safely transported in a machine that has thousands of moving parts, lots of flammable fuel and weighs considerably more than the air it displaces.  All your arguments stink of envy toward Toad.  You list nothing but the good things and mention nothing of the bad.  A furlough can come at any time, all the nights away from home, shooting a Cat II or III approach in weather rudolph can't see his nose in and lets not forget all the years of low pay and long hours they endured to get there.  Sounds like you took the easy way out flying a desk, when you really want to be in the left seat.

[Dago]

Originally posted by Dnil
yikes dago, kinda loose on how it really works as a pilot.  

Starting eagle pay, 1600 a month.  Starting cfi pay where I fly is 15 bucks a FLIGHT hour.  The big bucks only come into long term captain slots.  If anything the vast majority of pilots are underpaid.  Considering the responsibilty they carry with each flight.  How many lives does a 747 captian have in his hands?  Do you want a pissed off pilot making 20k a year doing that?  

Toad can tell you, Airline guys spend a ton of time away from home and long days, most of it unpaid.

EDIT:  Most of us do it with no visions of a huge paycheck, I do it because I love to fly.  I worked office space type jobs and hated it, made prolly 4 times what I could as a cfi.

I agree with most of what you say dnil, but my objection is with the pilots at a major.  Commuter pilots and most of the rest dont get rich, far from it.

Tell me, how many more lives does the pilot have in his hands then the mechanic who installed the engine(s), or signed the maintenance release?  Mechanics errors have killed people just as have pilot errors, yet the mechanics arent paid the same.  Why is that?  The A&P is harder to get, and they normally can expect to work low paying jobs for years to try and get into an airline, only to live with the ever present threat of layoff or airline failure.

But, you do realize that a 3 yr F/O at a major is in, feel free to correct me if you can prove me wrong, is making about 100g a year.

Time away from home?  True, but next time in a hotel, look around at the other guests.  They are almost all there for work too.  Traveling and staying in hotels isn't unique to the pilot world.  So, would you justify those huge salaries to everyone who travels as part of their employment?  BTW, pilots know this will be required before they take their first flight lesson.

dago

[Dago]

Golfer, you dont have the whiskers or cash to buy a clue yet, so dont bother trying to lecture me.

I have been in avaition full time for about 28 years.  Worked for a major now nearly 20 years.  I know more professional pilots as friends then you have probably met.  On Saturdays I have lunch with a bunch of them, have done that for quite a while.  Even they agree the pay/pension is getting riduculous, and they are 747 Capt types, and more than one airline is involved in that lunch crowd.

I have traveled the world literally, met the Chief Pilots, Training Dept Pilots, and Presidents of many airlines as part of my job.  I know something about what I speak.

Since your comprehension is lacking, I will clarify for you.  I think Capts at majors make too much money.  I never said all pilots do, if I gave that impression, my mistake.  

But, I do not agree, and never will, that a Capt who flies a widebody internationally needs to make 250-300 G a year to fly one week a month.  I believe UAL pilots were making almost if not 400 grand a year doing that.

That is too much, whether your young fuzzy butt agrees or not.

If I ran an airline, I would pay Sr Capts 150g for widebody intl, Sr Capts domestic maybe 100g.  That would be it.  And that would be a good living.

dago