Author Topic: Just Ugly (me and my 38)....  (Read 1098 times)

Offline humble

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« on: November 06, 2004, 09:53:23 AM »
Sigh....

This sums up me and the 38 perfectly...

http://www.azhacker.com/images/uglyduck.ahf

In any other plane I can fly this pretty basic reverse with no problems...in a 38 I'm just miserable. Obviously a wee bit of flaps would of helped...but I get zero warning before departure and my speed is in the 135+ range at worst. Any comments from you gods of the 38 greatly appreciated:)....

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Offline MaddogJoe

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2004, 04:29:20 PM »
first let me say I'm not a "38 god", but here are my thougths anyway  :)

First you had an F4u-1 on ya and he was closing with some good "E".  Flaps would have helped, but I wouldn't have been as aggressive in responce to his moves. I would have maneuvered enough to mess up his shot, but then would have leveled out in a different direction. This would have made him burn more E to get back to me, so I could equalise with him better.

However, having pushed the attack.... that reversal ya did is one of my favs... you could have stayed with him using the flaps. Rolling over the top of the loops you should have been 2 if not 3 notches of flaps, bringing them back up one of two notches as you went into the lower part of the loop. You could have gone on continusly like that were to hog wouldn't have been able to do more than a couple. At that point you would have closed angles and gotten the kill.... well as long as you don't shoot like me!

Of course, I'm not a "god" so you can take it for what its worth  :)

Offline humble

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2004, 08:44:26 PM »
Maddog...

your thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated....

I had a nikki back there who had just gone out of icon range...I was dragging as far as I could...all though I'd of let him close anyway. Once I broke the hog determined my actions....basically there are always three possibilities...bad, ok, good. He picked "bad" and that let me be aggresive (I'll always be as aggresive as I can). I dont like to give guys free shots so I'm not inclined to let em reload and try again.

What speed to you pop flaps at under those circumstances?

Basically I felt he was toast once he went ahead and took the shot....snap stall suprised me a bit....working on getting used to flaps...most other iron no need at those speeds.

Also sounds like you keep a notch or two even thru bottom...leave em down till they auto retract???

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Offline SlapShot

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2004, 09:47:12 PM »
Like MDJ pointed out, there are many options ...

but the one you picked was just fine and your reversal was beautiful. What I noticed in the film is that on his first pass, he shot some control surfaces off your plane. This could account for the sloppiness and the auger.

Do you use manual trim on the P-38 ?

I personally never use Combat Trim and I only trim the elevators to help keep a nose up attitude when needed.

With that in mind, once you completed you "roll" reversal (which was sweet), once I saw him start to go vertical, I would have started to dial in some elevator to get the nose up into my loop quicker. Like MDJ pointed out, just before the apex of the loop, I probably would have dumped 1 notch of flaps to bring it over quicker, and once that happened, I would immediately bring the flaps back in to gain some speed on the downhill run.

I think that if you had not suffered damage, and could have completed you loop, you would have gotten then F-4U.
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Offline MaddogJoe

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2004, 11:09:59 PM »
I was going to point that out too.... don't use combat trim in a 38 ! the slower you get the more the nose trims up, throwing you into a stall.... you can "wallow" around at the top of a loop like that, makes a real easy target  :)

The flaps are hard to explain, Slap would have used only one notch at the top, where I would have use 2 or more. With a speed of 135, for me its two, thinking about the third. I guess its a feel thing. But using them seems to save E by getting the nose up and around quicker.

Offline humble

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2004, 04:40:33 PM »
Thank you both.....

1st off I didnt even realize he dinged the plane...90% of the time that type of "grazing" fire just damages the paint...i'll need to go back and look....very possible that caused the stall. I never use combat trim on any plane. I didnt think about dialing in some nose up however....great point. Once I get a few more under my belt I'll post a follow up ugly for intermediate lessons:)...

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2004, 07:43:46 AM »
It appears he nailed some flaps on the merge. In that case, flaps were not an option. At least flaps are what I saw fly off the plane as he made his shot on the merge.


I noticed the other night in our third fight, you actually had a slight advantage and evidently pulled too hard trying to maximize it. I saw you spin in, and put a few rounds in you to make sure. I actually expected you to maintain your advantage, so I dropped flaps and tried to stay nose high, because I figured you would drop your nose slightly for a nose low turn and then try to use the speed to complete the turn and pull up inside. I intended to reverse the turn as you came up.

You might have been able to recover if you had killed the engines (you should not have to in a P-38, but it DOES make a difference).
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline humble

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2004, 09:05:14 AM »
Were you flying as "savage"?? (duh...didnt see the tag :D)

If so I remember it....I'm just not intuitive with the 38 at all. I probably have it on film...I'll chk tonight and see. If I've got it I'll post up...that way you can see it from my end and comment as appropriate.

For whatever reason I just dont seem to mesh well with the 38...it's a plane that seems to need to be flown very specifically to its strengths. I tend to prefer planes like the Ki-61 that I can make fit whatever role I want them to...often feel like the 38's flying me instead of the other way around:)

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Offline pellik

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2004, 02:35:11 PM »
I can't watch your film until maybe friday, so if you could describe your reversal I would give you help decieding flap deployment. But basically the 38 wants to get slow, and flaps help it get there. The F4U is a dangerous foe in a medium speed fight, much like the jug, and will put up a tremendous fight if well flown. The F4U can not, however, hang in there down at the <120mph range, and will lose position very quickly. Thus full flaps become the ideal. In a slow speed fight position almost always goes to the slower guy.

As far as the versitility of the 38 goes, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the ki61 can fit into any situation and the 38 can't. Success in any plane requires flying to that planes strengths. This is true in the 38 as much as anything, yes, but the difference the 38 offers (and why so many vets seem to prefer it) is that the 38 has advantages it can fly to in any situation. I'll list a few here, as maybe you've missed some in your initial trials.

At high speed the 38 can roll pretty well. It's no 190, but it can out roll a spit pretty well when shooting along at 350-400mph.

The 38 is damn heavy, and dives like a brick. The relatively lower compression speed requires you to be careful, but a well timed dive can get you away from many "faster" planes. The extra mass also contributes to good level flying energy retention, giving the impression that you can maintain rediculously fast speeds on the deck and often causing people to break off and comment about how fast the 38 is on ch200.

While the 38 doesn't really retain E like a 51D, it makes up for its higher drag with stall characteristics. So you're 50mph slower after your same zoom, but you can keep going up longer, and accelleration at low speeds is awsome in most fighters. Top out your zoom at 80mph and fewer planes will be able to follow.

At medium speeds the 38 offers a solid high drag platform and again incredible stall characteristics. Thus you can at least maintain position with the better medium speed turners until the fight transposes into a low speed stall fight. Flaps come out pretty fast at 200-250mph, and like all the american planes turning nose down with flaps out gives you a very solid turn rate. Take advantage of the drag and verticle performance to go for quick aggressive reversals, usually built around nose high barrel rolls.

At low speeds the 38 is one of the best planes in it's class. Only the early war planes can hang in there with you, and even against them you're going to have an advantage in stall characteristics. Verticle scissors is the name of the game. If you're losing position on the verticle scissors get aggressive and do a nose high flat scissors. Nothing else in the game is so adept at going nose up until 0mph and having total control in the reversal.

My impression of the KI-61 is that it's a solid medium speed turner, but is weak in both low and high speed fights.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

-pellik

Offline humble

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2004, 02:56:39 PM »
pellik....

Film is a basic on the deck angles reverse...basically a climbing right hander into a sweeping downward left hander presenting a relatively low % shot that sets up a nice kill shot setup that I blow...

Anyway,

38 is a plane I keep coming back to but simply dont like much. It's simply not fun to fly (for me at least). It reminds me of the 109 alot in that it has a "right way" and a "wrong way". Only 109s worth beans are the G-2/F-4 IMO. I've run into enough of them to see what they can do...simply find that a bit to boring for me...low attention span I guess. The 38 is basically a surgeons plane and I'm the guy with the chainsaw at heart. Average fight for me is probably 1-2 minutes max. Most good 38 drivers are barely warmed up by then....still I'm always up to learning something new and I'm using the 38 as Jabo (instead of planned A-20) this tour.

I'd love see a few clips from you if you've got em....got enough clips on Ki (and lala) up to give you afeel for how I fly (good and bad)...

Thanks again for the comments, greatly appreciated...next jabo hop I'll fool around with what you've suggested...if I get a decent clip I'll put it up for critique.

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Offline MaddogJoe

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2004, 03:27:30 PM »
Lots of good films at the Raiders Site been thinking about making it my "home page"  :)

Offline Murdr

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2004, 08:18:37 PM »
Just watching your film with stick in hand as if I were flying....

The initial first half of your turn to face the f4u, I was with you all the way.  The 2nd half I wanted to roll harder left (you held your horizon angle, then rolled right) to not leave the shot.  

The reversal was exactly what I would have done.

Savage is correct that you lost a flap, so flap usage was a moot point.  With undamaged flaps, I probably would gained so much more angle on the way up, that it would completely depart from the remaining film.

On the verticle down of the loop I really, really wanted to flatten the turn off to the right, rather than continue a split-s.

Dont ask me how, but I would have headed that spin off at the first wiggle to the left.

The other gents here seem to be responding with good 38 tid bits, so Ill just leave it at that.

Offline killnu

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2004, 03:38:43 PM »
i love combat trim in my 38:D
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Offline pellik

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2004, 08:23:27 PM »
I finally got to look at  your film today. If I were flying I'd have been more comfortable with a lower faster reversal starting my break turn a lot earlier and keeping things a little softer. The reversal you did is a good one, it's advantage is that it can be very hard to counter. The down side is that E fighters like the F4U1 who can scrub  E incredibly fast in a nose high turn will pick up the snapshot much too often.  My concern when setting up any reversal is to be sure that I'm going fast enough at a high enough AOT that he can't get his nose around on me until after I've started my barrel roll. When you're a little slower then him going high like that slows you down too much, then even at a ~90 degree AOT you won't keep in front of his guns.

I would have started my barrel roll a full second or so before you did, too. He already had a shot on you, if you started your roll earlier you would have only shown him your engine, and avoided the hit to the flap. Oil probably would have gone, but that's not too terrible. Starting the barrel roll earlier requires the roll to be a bit bigger. The snap shot you'd get would be harder if he extended out, but if he tried to turn with you your high position would have allowed you to get into a stall loop pretty quick to end the fight.

I don't have a good film of this reversal in a 38 (Like everyone else, turning film on pretty much guarantees I'll fly like crap). But I do have a quick film of a very similar reversal while flying a 262 that's posted on the 479th's site.

-pellik

Offline humble

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Just Ugly (me and my 38)....
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2004, 09:33:19 PM »
thanks....

One of the "tendencies" I have is very late breaks. I think it comes from two things...1st as a trainer way back I just got in the habit with the babyseals....

2nd I feel that the longer I can hold the break the more I dictate the fight....seems with most folks once they "lock in" that they will continue to push the fight. I've found (again probably back as a trainer) that most folks have a go/no go....prior to that point they'll be a bit more flexible to "safe" fighting....but once they saddle up they just go....personally I'm really comfortable in "the phonebooth"....

This may give you and idea of normal for me....is another Ki-61 hop (literally last hop I flew)....let spitty in to~800 before I broke...good stick fun fight....missed my shot window he extended broke of to bring him back and 109 broke me off....bad SA/decision loop killed me but still pretty good example of how I fly.....
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film69.ahf

I've picked up a couple things here....

Murder...

Diff in roll.....agree completely....felt like the guy in movie titanic going ...turn...turn...turn...got to look at it again and see if I can pick what you see up...as for correction know what you mean...if ya look at clip I lose ki and grab her back 2 or 3 times....

Pellick...

I dont like flat anything...to me the hi yoyo rev is faster....but next time i'll try it...as for barrel roll i'll look at that to....I honestly didnt think he'd even hit me let alone ding me...I almost never get damaged on a rev (5% or less)...Barrel roll sooner just to avoid shot or as a part of the reverse?? ie timing or shot avoidance only?

two questions for both of you....

Given the situation as it was....is there a more prefered reversal??
Were flaps a big deal or simply me dealing with learning the FM...

Part of the issues are probably just learning the realities of the 38....again going to the clip in this reply...I can let a spit (or any plane) well inside 1000 in most planes in the set. F4U/F6/F4F/205/202/109FG2-6/lala5-7/P51b-d/....now obviously not everything plays out the same but thru 80% of the flight envelope they fly the same. The 38 just baffles me....from your comments I think I'm just "late" with the plane. I'll fly some more hops this weekend and if I come up with something worth the bandwidth Ill put it up...

Thank you both again...

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson