La-7.....frusteration.....rising.....

[AKFokerFoder+]

How do you manage to stay awake at the stick ?

Heh!

I consider myself to be a hunter.  There is a certain quality I am looking for in a kill.  Last month I was 3.5 kills per hour as a fighter. Not great by anymeans. But I don't find it boring.  I am continually checking the 'dar, the dar bar, looking for low suspicious dots, and certainly checking my six, 'dar or no 'dar.

My favorite is to swoop down on an unsupecting bogey, come up on his low 6 at least 100mph faster, pull up just as the meter hits D200, and let him have the whole 9 yards.  Since I don't use tracers, the bogeys first clue is when my 4 20mms and 2 50's are shredding his pretty plane

Hell, 1 of those a night is worth the price of admission

Vulching is fun, but gets boring real fast if you do it a lot.

Also shooting a roped bogey is always a hoot

[stantond]

Bolke's Dicta works for AH. I am not sure it makes for a fun game though. Fighter Combat by Shaw does not.

Shaw provides guidance and principles for getting on another planes six using ACM. That's not where you want to be in AH. As such, Shaw is not of much help and following that book will quickly get you killed! ACM applies in AH but the best guns solution is not a tracking shot. A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want. That makes for different preferred maneuvering such as horizontal scissors and reversals

It took me a long time (not everyone is smart about everything) to realize that AH has extraordinary detail in some areas, but is bass ackwards in others. One naturally tends to think (and the rhetoric on these boards reinforces that) with all this detail the game is realistic! I get the impression AH wants to set itself apart from warbirds or air warrior by these differences. It's all a matter of perspective in what makes the game fun for you! .

No attack on Shaw's book was intended!!  As well, this is not an attack on AH!!

Shaw's book is the bible of air combat.  What the above means is a lot of Shaw's tactic are suicidal in AH because of the preference (ease) of frontal snap shots.  I have Shaw's 1985 edition and page 24 shows the envelope for a guns solution (Figure 1-4).  
Shaw's tactics are intended to get you into the tracking area and use the limited front quarter shooting envelope (this is all 3D) to get a tactical advantage.  





This guns effectiveness envelope is not the same as the envelope in AH.  That changes the tactics Shaw discusses.  The nme will HO you if you try some of Shaw's tactics.  That same preference for frontal shots can be used to the attackers advantage with the scissors and reversals.

In AH, having that tactical advantage does not mean you will get the kill.  If you are on someone's six and they know you are there, you will need them to turn and 'steady out' for a deflection shot (unless you have a 20mm).  That is not necessary for a front quarter shot.

But... don't believe me!!  Try them out for yourself!  I also "saddle up" on the tracking shot but its not the best way to play the game, IMO.

That said, there is no reason Shaw has to be applied to AH.  I never said it must be.  The game has been going on since 1999 this way.


Malta

[4510]

Originally posted by Shane
i never read shaw.

most of what i picked up i did on my own thru experience and then later found the appropriate terminology for whatever.

i also did some basic research about 2 years after i started flight sims - which is where i learned the terminology and stuff. pictures were very helpful.

 maybe...

  I got a Shaw pelt in AW.... mano-o-mano... I got a lucky ping, and while we were both "riding the edge"... he stalled... and I stalled... he caught the ground... I JUST managed to pull out...  

Ponies we were in.... man was I pumped !  But it isn't like I saddled and owned him by any means.  I got lucky... but still cool.

[stantond]

In AH2 killing La7's using the F4U-1:

You have to throw caution to the wind.  In the last few months my 8-10 attempts at a six shot closing from 400 yards have not damaged one.  The plane form, or front quarter shots take them down.  That is not to say a snap rear quarter hit has not occurred, it just won't damage them in my experience.  The La7's turn inside the F4U at > 200 ias.  The vertical scissors is one manuever that works and gives that frontal area or plane form to shoot at.  Once you get the La7 vertical and slow it down the flaps on the F4U come into play.  It seems to be a waste of ammo shooting at them once their speed gets over 200 ias and you are in their rear quarter.  I usually shoot at them though.  Old habits die hard.  


Your mileage may vary.  A cannon equipped plane plane changes these tactics, but I don't fly them much.  


Regards,

Malta

[4510]

Originally posted by stantond
In AH2 killing La7's using the F4U-1:

You have to throw caution to the wind.  In the last few months my 8-10 attempts at a six shot closing from 400 yards have not damaged one.  The plane form, or front quarter shots take them down.  That is not to say a snap rear quarter hit has not occurred, it just won't damage them in my experience.  The La7's turn inside the F4U at > 200 ias.  The vertical scissors is one manuever that works and gives that frontal area or plane form to shoot at.  Once you get the La7 vertical and slow it down the flaps on the F4U come into play.  It seems to be a waste of ammo shooting at them once their speed gets over 200 ias and you are in their rear quarter.  I usually shoot at them though.  Old habits die hard.  


Your mileage may vary.  A cannon equipped plane plane changes these tactics, but I don't fly them much.  


Regards,

Malta

Ok...

I see a recuring theme in the discussion here.  It is difficult or a waste of time to shoot from dead astern.  That the only shots that really seem to be working well (if at all) are those taken with deflection at the plane form.  

How realistic is this?  

I've got a series of gun camera films (real) from WWII and the shots are all taken from directly astern with slight drift from side to side.  Certainly no shots taken from the quarters or front quarters.  I have a book with gun camera pictures and the same thing can be said.

So if it can't be done from astern in AH2... is this something that needs to be fixed?

[Tilt]

Shaw's book is primarily about jet fighters attaining either guns or rocket solutions.

It also conducts ACM thru angles and comparative e states to arrive at an "effective guns solution".

Often shaw's examples induce one to risk the snap shot when separation cannot be immediately achieved to set up the angle or indeed when the angle cannot be set up to achieve the separation (depending upon circumstance).

But then Shaw is considering massive e states (jet fighters) and some of his snap shot examples can more easily be converted into lag/lead turns in AH if the snap shot is refused. (depends upon the nose down/up status)

Hence where Shaw would often suggest we offer the snap shot to gain angle, in AH our opponent may not take it any way as his prefered option would be to scrub e and adopt a lead/lag turn to gain his own angles adavantage.

There are little or no "stall" fighting tactics in Shaw. AH "stall" fighting is one IMO where both opponents incurr massive e loss to gain angle and force the combat down to very low  mutual e state. The combatant who rides the edge better gets a sustained guns position as his opponent finally wallows.

[Karnak]

Well, last night was much better.

I started taking 50% fuel + DTs and the Ki-84's roll rate is much improved.  Of the three La-7s I engaged last night, one was shot down (from directly behind as it decided to run too late) and the other two withdrew with heavy damage.  None of them landed a hit on me.

The improved roll rate really helps. The Ki-84 feels like a fighter now (as long as it is below 300mph) whereas before v2.02 it felt like a Typhoon without the speed.

[humble]

Originally posted by Karnak
Well, last night was much better.

I started taking 50% fuel + DTs and the Ki-84's roll rate is much improved.  Of the three La-7s I engaged last night, one was shot down (from directly behind as it decided to run too late) and the other two withdrew with heavy damage.  None of them landed a hit on me.

The improved roll rate really helps. The Ki-84 feels like a fighter now (as long as it is below 300mph) whereas before v2.02 it felt like a Typhoon without the speed.

Told you it was the roll rate...not the speed that was the real problem...

[Zanth]

http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/totalstats.php?sortby=kill_sort

Ki84 is the number 2 killer in the game as of this AM.  Just behind the LA7 - LA7 K/D 1.30  KI84 K/D 1.28 ( I expect the patch fix will begin tilting those numbers more in the next few days)

[humble]

Originally posted by stantond
In AH2 killing La7's using the F4U-1:

You have to throw caution to the wind.  In the last few months my 8-10 attempts at a six shot closing from 400 yards have not damaged one.  The plane form, or front quarter shots take them down.  That is not to say a snap rear quarter hit has not occurred, it just won't damage them in my experience.  The La7's turn inside the F4U at > 200 ias.  The vertical scissors is one manuever that works and gives that frontal area or plane form to shoot at.  Once you get the La7 vertical and slow it down the flaps on the F4U come into play.  It seems to be a waste of ammo shooting at them once their speed gets over 200 ias and you are in their rear quarter.  I usually shoot at them though.  Old habits die hard.  


Your mileage may vary.  A cannon equipped plane plane changes these tactics, but I don't fly them much.  


Regards,

Malta

stantond,

I'm really not trying to beat on you...but what you keep articultating displays a serious misapplication of ACM. A fight between two aircraft is 3 dimensional not 2. almost never is a shot literally "dead six"... one your ~400 out on an la-7 or any plane you've done most of the work. now a -1 hog has enough ammo that a serious helping of .50's can be delivered. Once the lala breaks you get some shot window...now at 200 IAS (co-e) no lala on the planet can turn inside me in a -1.....ever never under no circumstances in fact no plane in the set can turn inside me.  If I'm 400 out on you in a -1 hog I'm going to get a shot almost all the time...95%+ against a "simple" move...now there are guys who can string complex evasives and dance thru the shot window....but no one is going to simply "turn away" from me (or any decent stick) under the circumstances you describe.

What you basically keep saying is my gunnery just sucks and I cant hit anything but a HO or face shot with any regularity so you should do the same

As for the vertical scissors and the lala....against the typical lala noob sure. But no good lala drivers gonna accept a vertical scissors going down hill....and in a climbing scissors the lala will convert to a spiral climb and give you almost no chance....

You keep letting gunnery dictate your ACM vs letting your ACM setup your gunnery...

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Zanth
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/totalstats.php?sortby=kill_sort

Ki84 is the number 2 killer in the game as of this AM.  Just behind the LA7 - LA7 K/D 1.30  KI84 K/D 1.28 ( I expect the patch fix will begin tilting those numbers more in the next few days)

The Ki-84 was, by far, the kill leader last Friday.

We'll have to wait for a couple of Tours to see where it stabilizes.  I'd guess that it will be in the low top ten unless it's mid and high speed elevator authority gets fixed.  Already we're seeing it's numbers fall off as people try it because it is new and then, discovering that many things can leave at will, go back to their old speed demons.  I have even heard this said online.

[Nilsen]

La7 drivers are just plain evil... simple as that.

[humble]

Originally posted by Nilsen
La7 drivers are just plain evil... simple as that.

The lala is simply an other piece of iron, the man in the machine makes the machine go...simple as that:D

[stantond]

Shaw's book is primarily about jet fighters attaining either guns or rocket solutions.

It also conducts ACM thru angles and comparative e states to arrive at an "effective guns solution".

Often shaw's examples induce one to risk the snap shot when separation cannot be immediately achieved to set up the angle or indeed when the angle cannot be set up to achieve the separation (depending upon circumstance).

But then Shaw is considering massive e states (jet fighters) and some of his snap shot examples can more easily be converted into lag/lead turns in AH if the snap shot is refused. (depends upon the nose down/up status)

Hence where Shaw would often suggest we offer the snap shot to gain angle, in AH our opponent may not take it any way as his prefered option would be to scrub e and adopt a lead/lag turn to gain his own angles adavantage.

There are little or no "stall" fighting tactics in Shaw. AH "stall" fighting is one IMO where both opponents incurr massive e loss to gain angle and force the combat down to very low mutual e state. The combatant who rides the edge better gets a sustained guns position as his opponent finally wallows.  

Shaw's book does have jet fighters in many illustrations, but the text, descriptions and concepts apply to all air combat, WW1 to present.   Check out chapter 3, One-versus-One Maneuvering, Similar Aircraft.  Angles fighting is discussed considerably.  

Energy is related to the two aircraft.  A Spad XIII flown by the "Hat in the Ring" sqad in WW1 was an energy fighter compared to the Fokker DrVII.   The F4U was never designed as an angles fighter during WW2.  However, against a Korean war Mig, the F4U was the angles fighter.

The energy-manueverabilty (E-M) curves described in Shaw, pg 387-400 help decide which fighter is an angles or energy fighter.  Stall fighting is just using the envelope edge in an E-M chart.  IMO, if you are riding the stall horn, you better have some altitude or be around a bunch of frendlies because you slow.  

Quotes from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw:

"I started shooting when I was much too far away.  That was merely a trick of mine.  I did not mean so much to hit him as frighten him, and I succeeded in catching him.  He began flying curves and this enabled me to draw near.  Baron Manfred von Richthofen. " pg 166  

"Speed is life.  Israeli Tactics Manual" pg 230.

"The important thing in aeroplanes is that they shall be speedy.  Baron Manfred von Richtofen".  pg 405


Happy Veterans Day!!

Regards,

Malta

"What does not destroy me makes me stronger.  Prussian Military Axiom" pg 331.

[Zanth]

While we are going wildly off topic - The truly uber killer in AH remains the the Panzer with machine gun with the exposed gunner you can't kill.

The La-7 has 43 kills and has been killed 87 times against the Panzer IV H.

The Ki-84-Ia has 59 kills and has been killed 86 times against the Panzer IV H.