Why do I look there ?

[Vermillion]

I just went back and re-read my post.

I didn't call any names, didn't call anyone dweeb, and at worst said that padlock was a "crutch". Nothing more.

Sorry if I offended Tym.

But if that bothers you so much, your not gonna last long in the shark feeding frenzies around here.  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Andy Bush]

Verm

Sorry..I just noticed your question at the end of your post.

For starters, I'm not a big padlock fan. Most padlocks give me the heebie-jeebies...all I do is lawndart myself! Falcon4 is the exception. I think its padlock options are about as good as any sim made.

Perhaps the most common objection to padlocks is when the view stays 'locked' when the target fly behind an obstruction (usually aircraft structure). The typical fix is to have the padlock revert to the forward view after some short period of time. I consider this reversion back to the forward view to be worse than the problem that it was supposed to fix! In RL, if the target flew out of view, the last thing we did was look back forward.

What did we do? Two things come to mind. One, we continued to project the target movement along its last seen flight path and watched for it to come back into view (in this case, I am assuming no movement of the flight controls during this time), and second, we kept looking in that general area as we then made a control input designed to move the offending aircraft structure out of the way (such as a roll or rudder input to yaw the tail). In either case, we usually kept looking in the direction of the target.

One exception to this was when the target went out of view as it overshot at our six o'clock. If the overshoot was rapid enough, we would quickly roll in the opposite direction and look back to where we expected the overshooting target to be.

I have not used the AH padlock much myself since I've tried to learn the fixed view technique (without much success, I might note!), so I'm not really qualified to suggest a fix for it.

The one aspect of it that I do not care for is the lack of a fluid panning motion. At present, the padlock seems to be more of an 'automatic view changer' than anything else.

But I do appreciate the time and effort that HTC put into its development...maybe sometime they might make it more to the liking of the folks that want to use it.

Andy

[Lepton]

Andy,

I agree with your assertion that someone using an external player-target view has a significant advantage over someone using fixed views. There is still, clearly, some debate about whether such a view should be included in a sim or not. It's a valid point of discussion, although personally it removes some of the immersion factor. I get the sense of watching a movie rather than flying a plane when using the external views in a sim.

The player-target view also acts as a kind of super-padlock. The biggest concern that I've heard of regarding "perfect" padlock views is that they eliminate the chance to surprise your opponent by an out of view manuever. It seems like that could be solved with a padlock view that tracks what it last saw or simply stops tracking if it loses sight, but an external view has no such problem.

Regarding SA, I think the ability to take a quick look around is very critical. In a multiplane environment where new bogies are constantly appearing, the ability to quickly scan around is a key to not getting bounced yourself. That's the big reason that I use the fixed (adjustable) views, so I'd insist that any padlock feature allow you to scan the fixed views and return rather than having to unlock or switch modes or whatever.

Finally, I'd submit that the perfect view system for jet combat sims such as Falcon 4 (an awesome sim btw!) might be different than those in a prop sim. This is simply because the two types of combat environments are wildly different. In jets you have the advantage of better information going into the fight, but the combats are mind numbing in their speed and intensity. In props, you have more time, although this can work both for you and against you.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the helmet that just lets me look where I want to look   We've got one in the lab, but the resolution is poor and the price tag is astounding. Once we solve that, we'll get to work on artifical gravity so all these guys can have the fun of looking over their shoulder while pulling 4 G's.

Soft Landings!

[Ripsnort]

How many of you ever played with NO views but a forward view?  I've done this several times in the TA by disabling my hat views...guess what, your SA INCREASES 10 fold.

I'm against using, or training anyone to use any sort of target lock on any sim, simply because it distracts what the goal of good flying is, Situational Awareness.

Try flying with only a forward view for a few days in the TA, you'll see your SA become sharp as a wet-stone knife.

[Dos Equis]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
How many of you ever played with NO views but a forward view?  I've done this several times in the TA by disabling my hat views...guess what, your SA INCREASES 10 fold.

I'm against using, or training anyone to use any sort of target lock on any sim, simply because it distracts what the goal of good flying is, Situational Awareness.

Try flying with only a forward view for a few days in the TA, you'll see your SA become sharp as a wet-stone knife.

That's whack. What do you do when you avoid a HO shot and then pull back? How do you know if the bogey is egressing upward or turning back quickly? Use the force?

If you getting stalked, you would have to change your entire flight style to accomodate the fact you cant see when he makes his run at you.

I personally think you would pick up bad habits doing this, although it would teach you to be really aggressive.

X2

[Lephturn]

Hmmm, missed this one a while back I see.

Andy, I do think, in my opinion, AH has the best view system I have seen in a flight sim for the PC.  I have played a few in my time, although I'm sure all here have.  Although I don't have F4, there have been a few jet sims I tried, such as F-15, F/A-18, and USAF.  I've played stuff like Fighter Duel, Longbow I and II, and much, much more.  While I don't claim to be an expert in building view systems (though I would certainly consider one of my squaddies and expert), I do have my own opinions.  When I make statements like that, I do try to be clear that it is only my opinion, so I think that's fair.  I guess in the post you replied to, I should have made the point more clearly that this was my opinion only.  However the answer is yes, I do honestly think it is the best view system I have ever seen in a PC air combat simulation.

I truly feel that the fixed view system that HT and Pyro developed first for WB, and have evolved in AH is the best thing going.  This view system allows me to do with my thumb what I would normally do with my neck and eyeballs.  I think that's a good thing, and I certainly find it preferable to the other systems I have tried.  While it may have steeper learning curve, the fixed view system gives me the speed, flexibility, and feedback I need for a good view system.  No other system I have tried gives me those things.  No padlock system gives me the instant PHYSICAL feedback that the fixed view system provides, nor can it.  It's the closest I think you can come to moving your eyes and head.

I guess this all comes down to what we consider "best".  My definition of "best", is the one that makes the most sense, is easy to use, and is as realistic as possible.  I think we agree on the facts, just not what is "best".  As you mention, the player-target external view is a great tool for teaching BFM and ACM.  It would be great to add them to the film viewer for teaching purposes.  If the goal was to come up with the best teaching tool, I would agree that a player-target external view system such as you describe would be the best solution.  However, for an air combat simulation that strives for some type of realism, I don't think it is proper.  What is "best" depends on what your goal is, and I think simulating air combat is the goal in a game like AH, not teaching it.

I want a simulation that models the strengths and weaknesses of WW2 combat aircraft, at least as many of those attributes as is reasonable.  Any external view system instantly destroys one set of attributes that play a very large part in such combat, and that is visibility.  It SHOULD be harder to track a bogey in a Wildcat than a P-51.  Heck, you want good BFM and ACM... well so do I.  If you have an external view system what happens to all of those maneuvers that are specifically designed to work because you make the other guy lose sight?  Wouldn't you say a pilot's skills were lacking if he didn't know any ACM designed to let him escape by extending to the target's blind side?  I think that's a big part of air combat, and it's not a part I want to see eliminated by an external view system.

We all have opinions, and many of them are different.  Though we disagree, it is great to debate these issues from time to time in a civil manner.  <S> For the discussion and for the great information you provide on these boards as well.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-05-2001).]

[Mk10 225th]

Hey Andy, good to see you!

I always tried to use padlock when I first started flying, but once I got used to the numpad view system, it's all I've ever used.

It works well for me in SDOE, Jane's, EAW, and seems to work pretty nicely in AH.

The ones I haven't liked are the Rowan sims, just because they don't give you a darn 5+8 numpad 45 degree view forward and up.  It's either forward, or straight up.

Andy, once you get used to it, you'll catch people just inside the full 90 degree straight up view.  You know you're in a turn with'em.

Then, if you start reeling them in, you'll notice you need to switch to the 5+8 view, and then when you notice you need to switch to the straight-ahead view, you start to get a little warm, runny feeling inside!  

I've found that using numpad views is the only way I can tell where I'm at in the three-dimensional world.

And it's not really that big of a hassle to check six, or more accurately, about 4:30 and 7:30, due to the seat back and back of cockpit.

Plus, there's nothing like rolling the wings perpenicular, pulling back on the stick, and using numpad 5 to do a really quick "cover your butt" scan of the sky when looking for bandits.

I don't know.  I've never been able to use padlock, because it totally disorients me, and I have no idea which way the nose of my aircraft it's pointed, and then I start losing the "feel" of how fast I'm flying, in which geometric plane, and then I get on the verge of stalling but I don't know why, etc.

And I don't know about padlock having an advantage.  I know in SDOE I would use the padlock just to get in the general vicinity of the bandit, and then once I spied them visually, I'd go to numpad view.

Once engaged in a fight, I don't think the padlock fella had any advantage on me at all.  Hell, I know where I am, and I know where he is, and I check for his buddies ever now and again, and rely on my squaddies to call out anything really bad.

You're probably right though Andy, an outside view probably would make a difference in a fight though, just because you could anticipate a little quicker, and use the three dimensions to your advantage.  

That's probably why it's easier to pilot a NASCAR Cup Car in arcade mode as opposed to the through-the-windshield view.

Anyway, didn't mean to talk so long, but keep playing with the numpad view system, and try getting used to that "reelin'em in" feeling of going from 90 degrees up, then to 45 degrees, and then straight ahead.  

Obviously if you aren't "reelin'em in," you're aren't turning with them, and it's time to put down the beer and try something different.

Good to hear from you!

Mk

[Jekyll]

 

How many of you ever played with NO views but a forward view? I've done this several times in the TA by disabling my hat views...guess what, your SA INCREASES 10 fold.

Better still, disable ALL your views.  That's right, as you head into that merge, turn your monitor off.

You'll find that you can maneuver into the kill zone just by using your sense of smell.

Then again, I usually hunt Rooks and Knights, so smelling your opponent may be easier for me  

And if he does manage to beat you..... you never know it  

Seriously though, disabling all but your front view is, IMHO, a bad idea.  It might be good for your SA but it will be real bad for your BFM.  Why?  Well having only front view you may find you tend to just fly in the same flight plane as your opponent, trying to simply outturn him and bring him into your front view.

Hud BFM = BAD!

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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 01-07-2001).]

[bloom25]

I just thought I might add something here to hash around.

IMO the padlock mode tends to cause a player to engage in high-g (hence e burning) manuvers (TnB).  The snap views tend to favor the E fight (BnZ).  In any flight sim I've played I've found this to be the case; the padlock view generally results in the pilot trying to pull as many Gs as possible to get behind the bandit.  On the other hand, the snap view system generally favors the pilot who attempts to maximize his E by performing vertical manuvers (yo-yos, zoom climb, hammerhead, chandelle, etc).

I would say that if I were flying a zero the padlock would be very useful since any fighter that attempts to turn with you will likely be at a major disadvantage.  If a were a p51, however, the padlock would probably result in a spin.  (Inverted flat spin with my luck.   )

This is just something to hash around.  What do the rest of you think?



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS