Axis Flaps

[Crumpp]

According to US flight evaluations the 190 was clearly inferior to both the F4U and F6F with regard to turn performance and overall handling but superior to both in the climb. The stall came on very suddenly at 127 mph with no warning. That equates to 311 mph at 6G's at sea level. The plane also had a tremendous tendency to "flip" out on the pilot in a tight turn. This significantly limited its turn fighting capability's vs allied planes.

Read the condition of the aircraft.  Then read all the Luftwaffe reports, bullitens, and manual warnings on improperly adjusted alierons and their effect.  The FW-190A5 in the USN test was a recovered crash that needed fairly extensive repairs.  Including a main wing bolt.  Judging form the description of the aircrafts behaviors,  there is no doubt the ailerons were out of adjustment.

At the very bottom:





Or this exerpt from a Rechlin report:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/aleirons.jpg

I could even show you the various hinges (there were 3 different hinges corresponding to different performance bands) and the adjustment blocks.  The FW-190 had many great design innovations especially in the area of maintenance.  It's alieron adjustments and their importance to turning performance is not one of them.  Basically two smooth blocks of duraluminum are bolted together.  The alieron hinge block has oblong holes that the bolts can slide in to adjust them.  This is placed on the smooth alieron mounting block afixed to the wing. When in the correct position simply tighten the bolts.  Even with a lock washer I imagine they needed frequent checking and adjustment.

I encourage you to join.  Many of our technicians have worked on warbirds such as P51D's, P 38's, P 40's, and Me-109's.  They have a wealth of knowledge about the details of these aircraft.

Crumpp

[humble]

fasinating stuff....TY....

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Basically in my point of view the P-38 pilots whining of how the P-38 will snap stall violently, is like a spoiled kid's rant.

 They don't have to battle with the wobbling plane at all until they push the plane simply just too far, and it decides to stall out. As for me, it's a battle that starts from 200mph, which is at least 100mph higher than the stall speed, where the plane will wobble around like crazy each time it is on the verge of stall even with flaps out. Just go near the limit of AoA and the plane, even with flaps out, will wobble.

Kind of funny seeing the immersion/realism system lobbiest saying in effect "Realism be damned.  My plane has some crappy flight characteristics, so its ok for your plane to have completely inaccurate characteristics in its model.  You cry baby."

[Kweassa]

Kind of funny seeing the immersion/realism system lobbiest saying in effect "Realism be damned. My plane has some crappy flight characteristics, so its ok for your plane to have completely inaccurate characteristics in its model. You cry baby."

 Comparative cynicism.

 The perceived seriousness of the wackiness inherent in the 109 FM is nothing compared to what the P-38 pilots complained about.

 The "snap rolls" in the P-38 only happen when heavy rudders are engaged at extreme low speeds - usually during rolling scissors - which is a normal course of events the P-38 pilots are complaining about.

 Without any kind of disturbance in the roll/yaw axis you can pull all you want and the P-38 will refuse to stall out violently. It resists any kind of destabilization in the roll/yaw axis.

 The plane is the most stable one of them all in the entire plane set, which only the Ki-84 with full flaps out can match, and yet they want more stability.

 Now, compare this to a 109 - many sources indicating this plane can at least outturn a P-47 and be on par with the P-51 - which in AH2 is outturned by the P-47 due to the immediate destabilization met when speed reaches under 200mph.

 My apologies to the P-38 pilots and Virgil Hilts, but frankly, the desperation and frustration met by the P-38 pilots is a source for scorn, when compared to some of the other planes in AH reacting  strangely.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Kweassa
The "snap rolls" in the P-38 only happen when heavy rudders are engaged at extreme low speeds - usually during rolling scissors - which is a normal course of events the P-38 pilots are complaining about.

While I have no doubt you've see a complaint to this effect to form that opinion, that is not the condition Hilts, other 38 pilots, and I are upset about.  

There is a sudden, violent tail round spin that is induced simply by reaching an appearent accelerated stall while comming out of the verticle.  Consider how often a tight split-s is used in a fight, then consider the implications of having to tip-toe through that maneuver constantly for fear of sudden instant departure into a maple seed fall.  You dont need to be slow, you dont need rudder input, you dont need to be poorly trimmed, you dont need flaps, you dont need to be skirting black out Gs.  Believe me, Ive eliminated lots of plausable balance and control causes.  The last 2 times I experienced this was following 109's in my fwd+up view through a series of yo-yos with both planes at comparable intermediate speeds.

That said, Ive only experienced this about 15 times since about 2.0patch10, but in part that is due to avoiding the condition that causes it.  Prior to that I never induced that particular spin that way.   Still its a real pisser to lose or drag out fights due to a quark in the model that would not happen in the real plane.

[TequilaChaser]

Crump & Kweassa, where are both of you from? er where you live at/in what part of the world?

just curious........

lots of people on this bbs post but you never know what side of the world they live in........

and as for the Germans documents vs the  USN documents how does one know which is correct? both countrys prob would like their particular plane to outpreform the opponent on paper ya know.......

I would bet for ever document someone might come up with another could come up with a document that counters the first......

and as far as AH goes, I find the 190A5 to be the most agile / manueverable of all the 190s, but according to Crump it should be the worst...........

[Tilt]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser


and as far as AH goes, I find the 190A5 to be the most agile / manueverable of all the 190s, but according to Crump it should be the worst...........

My feelings also.............

is it a load out thing?

[wrag]

Interesting report here re 109 vs p51 in Flight Journal.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136439

Says the 109 should out turn the pony at lower speeds.

Note: the 109 they used was the 109g10 against a P51D.

Note: I seem to recall the 109g10 we have isn't really just a G model but kind of a cross between the late G models and the K models.  So this articale may not apply.

[1K3]

Originally posted by wrag
Interesting report here re 109 vs p51 in Flight Journal.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136439

Says the 109 should out turn the pony at lower speeds.

Note: the 109 they used was the 109g10 against a P51D.

Note: I seem to recall the 109g10 we have isn't really just a G model but kind of a cross between the late G models and the K models.  So this articale may not apply.

did that P-51D had 100% fuel when mock fight that 109?

[wrag]

Actually I just saw the word that our G10 is really a K4 with the ability to run with a 20mm instead of a 30mm as the hub cannon.

[Crumpp]

The FW-190A5 gained substantial weight and no horsepower.  It's boost ratings are the exact same as the FW-190A3.  

Compared to the FW-190A8 which gained a little weight over the FW-190A5 but added lots of horsepower.  Even in the early BMW-801D2Q powered versions.

Crumpp

[SkyGnome]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts

Not only that, the AH P-38, even with two perfectly operating engines, suffers from torque effects in both stalls and spins. You often MUST pull the engines back to idle, and sometimes even shut them down, in order to recover from a spin. That is PURE Bravo Sierra, nothing more, nothing less.

I've met this stall in both P38 and 110.  I can't claim to have flown either plane (or any plane), but I have taken enough physics to smell something really wierd.

Both planes will get into a "stall" (if you can call it that), where it will have 0 airspeed, and sit flat and level, while falling.  As long as throttle is not reduced, no control action will have any effect.  Once throttle is reduced, it is possible to get the nose down and recover.  I just can't imagine either of these planes falling straight down, while flat, level, and not spinning on any axis.

I've read the F16 will fall like this, but I just can't imagine one of these old birds doing it.  Or perhaps I'm ignorant.

 - SG

[Kweassa]

I've read the F16 will fall like this, but I just can't imagine one of these old birds doing it. Or perhaps I'm ignorant.

 Nor can I.

 Spins are badly developed stalls, while stalls are defined as a condition where a plane cannot stay a constant altitude.

 Now, in many cases a plane has a tendency of stall developing into a spin due to torque, but somebody with aerophysics knowledge please enlighten me - is torque the only factor contributing to a spin?

 If the answer is no, then there's no reason a P-38 would not spin. The pressures and forces working on a plane does not remain constant at all times, and depending on various factors such as bank angle and  rudder input there may be factors that aggravate a normal stalling status and develop it into a fatal spin.

 Now, in a level flight status where theoretically all forces are equal, you can pull all you want in the P-38L in AH2, and it will not spin. It lifts nose, gives off the buffeting sound(I have my stall.wav sound to that) and then just drops nose.

 However, most of the instances under question are a result from harsh maneuvering - as per the flap autoretraction problems.

 A P-38L enters into very harsh conditions at low speeds with lots of angles and stickpulls rudder inputs. The plane holds on to the edge provided by the flaps - and when the flaps retract the stall speed goes up, and the plane finds itself already in a physical state which cannot sustain any kind of normal or gentle behavior. How can a plane in this state not be expected to spin?

 Now, I've noticed some occasions considering extreme lowspeed verticals - this is a problem that plagues almost all AH2 planes and not just the P-38L.

 It's the status where the plane falls into a flat, or an inverted flat spin during a straight vertical. In the case of the Ta152, when you go vertical upto too low a speed, the plane will start a tailslide downwards and refuse to nose-over - sort of like a giant curcifix falling from the sky, the Ta "slides down" in an almost irrecoverable stall status.

 I've noticed simular things with the P-38L which in certain instances the plane will refuse to nose over, and just fall flat, straight down on its belly. Since the plane has no torque, it doesn't even flip over to one side.

 Somehow, in some planes when a plane stalls out vertically, it will refuse to nose over. Among them the P-38L has one of the deadliest stalls in this regard, and this I'd like to see fixed, if it is wrong.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

It can happen, and it has. When Jeff Ethell stalled Bruce Pruett's P-38 at Tillamook several years ago, it fell straight down, moving neither forward nor backward, nor spinning. It fell so straight that when it struck the ground, it did not move more than 12"-24" in any direction.

Now, the thing is, Jeff Ethell stalled the plane at 1500 feet and about 75 knots. With one engine out.

All I can tell you is what Captain Stan Richardson Jr. told me. He said that it was never necessary to adjust the throttles in a P-38 with two healthy engines to recover from a stall. He said it was nearly impossible to force a P-38 with two healthy engines into a spin. He said that the P-38 would go nose down after stalling so long as you did not pull back on the yoke, and at around 80 knots or so, it would begin to fly and respond to control input. He said nothing more than neutral pressure on the yoke, and opposite rudder was necessary to recover from a spin, and that no throttle adjustment was necessary. He said as long as you followed instructions, the P-38 would go nose down, and recover, within 3 revolutions. The man was an advanced instructor in the P-38. His job was to teach single engine techniques, and both stall and spin recovery. With around 3000 hours in the P-38, I can't think of anyone who would know more about it.

[Murdr]

Kind of funny how the P38 discussion is taking place in the axis flaps thread while simultaniously in the P38 thread they are arguing Luftwaffe operational strength