Author Topic: Ukraine (Read 2425 times)

Boroda · « **Reply #90 on:** December 01, 2004, 09:11:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by bikekil
Who called Ya, with the "contrgratulations" stuff before the votes were conted? Was it Putin? Maybe another conspiracy theory - Putin called Ya because he was sure that Ya is going to win the elections no matter what? If so, how happened thet Putin knew the results before the results were announced? Was it Ya, who claimed himself a winner of the frauded elections before we've seen the results?

Not that it means anything

He congratulated a candidate who obviously won by official vote count. IIRC he was the first to congratulate Bush too.

Ya never called himself a president, like that tangerine frankenstein. Hi insists on solution based on laws and constitution. BTW, he already said that he'll not participate in new elections if Supreme Court will declare the results fake, and said it's probably the only way out.

BTW, where the hell is Walensa? Ukraine desperatey needs new Yaruzelsky, to avoid bloodshed...

straffo · « **Reply #91 on:** December 01, 2004, 09:16:43 AM »

Ever heard of Seveso Boroda ?
It was all over the news some year ago ...

Boroda · « **Reply #92 on:** December 01, 2004, 09:34:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
Ever heard of Seveso Boroda ?
It was all over the news some year ago ...

Maybe I missed it because I rarely watch TV, can you give me a hint/link?

bikekil · « **Reply #93 on:** December 01, 2004, 09:51:57 AM »

Boroda,

If it's true about the coal - it really sucks man. We have the same thing here, we can have the work for our miners (?) but we are importing the coal... that sucks.

Repeating the elections as a whole, or just one round if a good idea (better the street fighting and blocking the cities for sure), but i really can't see why both Ya and Yu should not participate? People voted on both and both of them did nothing wrong, it's not about the candidates but about the frauds that happened as i see it, so all Ukraine should as for and the free and clean elections

just my opinion

bikekil · « **Reply #94 on:** December 01, 2004, 09:57:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
He congratulated a candidate who obviously won by official vote count. IIRC he was the first to congratulate Bush too.

Ya never called himself a president, like that tangerine frankenstein. Hi insists on solution based on laws and constitution. BTW, he already said that he'll not participate in new elections if Supreme Court will declare the results fake, and said it's probably the only way out.

BTW, where the hell is Walensa? Ukraine desperatey needs new Yaruzelsky, to avoid bloodshed...

Putin contrgratulated a candidate before the official vote count

Nothing wrong in being first itself

What Yu did with claiming himself as a President was stupid, but maybe he needed it to keep the spirit of the crowd. Still i think it was a poor show.

Again the whole deal is about the free choice of the people. I don't mins Ya being a president at all, but it'd be great if there is no doubt that that's the choice of people over there.

Toad · « **Reply #95 on:** December 01, 2004, 11:21:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
You didn't understand....

...President Kuchma said that the third round of elections (offered by Poles, EU and US) in a nonsence. He stands for the complete repeating of the elections.

Maybe you didn't understand.

The Poles, the EU and the US are making suggestions. But the heart of it is is what Powell said:

Powell says Ukraine must stay together

Quote

"I reaffirmed to President Kuchma the United States' position and the position of others that the territorial integrity of Ukraine is important," said Powell, speaking after a meeting with Bahrain King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa.

"We once again reaffirmed that we hope that Ukrainians will find a legal way forward as well as a political process based on the constitutional law," he added.

Election results are challenged everywhere. It even happens here. The key is that the problems are resolved in the courts and the constitutional process, not in the streets with tanks and machine guns.

Boroda · « **Reply #96 on:** December 01, 2004, 11:54:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Election results are challenged everywhere. It even happens here. The key is that the problems are resolved in the courts and the constitutional process, not in the streets with tanks and machine guns.

Well, first of all, Powell should STFU, because he already said that elections will be declared faked if US orange frankenstein puppet will lose. He already supported insurgency in the Ukraine, and didn't say a single word against overthrowing legal authorities in Lvov, while attempts to get autonomy in the East are declared "insurgency and separatism". Double standards, noone expected anything else.

About tanks and machine guns: I am happy that Ukrainians in Kiev are sane people, and didn't start armed riots a week ago, disappointig Yu and his gang who needed blood.

All my friends in Kiev are "tangerine". My family in Chernovtsy is "tangerine" too. I didn't talk to my relatives in Krivoy Rog (Eastern Ukraine, raw iron mines and steel factories) and Simferopol (Crimea), but I think they are pro-Ya.

Both Yu and Ya should be removed from political process. The problem is that Yu can't do this - too much Western money invested in him.

Another thought about the link Fd Ski posted above. I listened to that person, Sergey Markov, in the Russian media. His idea is that the Yu project is made by the US in favour of Poland, "new Europe", against France and Germany. Poland is considered a major US ally, a kind of "Trojan horse" to break EU apart. That's why Euronews suddenly changend opinion 180 degrees, now they call Yuschenko a "leader of liberal-nationalistic opposition, still hoping for Yugoslavian/Georgian-style coup d'etat".

The worst thing about it all is that we can expect anything like that in any country, including Russia

Toad · « **Reply #97 on:** December 01, 2004, 01:39:47 PM »

I believe what you continually MISS is that the evil conspiracy of the Poles, the EU and the US think:

A) the was serious election fraud in this election

B) the evil conspirators " hope that Ukrainians will find a legal way forward as well as a political process based on the constitutional law".

Right now, the Ukranian President Kuchma has indicated he thinks there was widespread vote fraud, the Ukraine Supreme Court decision put the election results on hold due to the possibility of widespread vote fraud and said it would conduct an examination into the election and the Ukraine's parliament has rejected the results of the country's presidential election and called for a new vote.

Let's see.... Urkraine's President, Supreme Court and Parliament ALL think there was a problem with this election.

Yep.... it's definitely the evil Western conspiracy that's just making this all up and causing all the trouble.

Jeez.... you are without doubt the best entertainment on this board.

Boroda · « **Reply #98 on:** December 01, 2004, 02:07:05 PM »

Toad, I already told you that there were violations on both sides.

Ya's headquaters sent 6000 violation reports to courts. In Lvov they were giving packs of ballots to the crowd in the streets saying "You know how to vote". Estimated number of fake pro-Yu votes in Western Ukraine is two million.

As I said: West sees any violation from pro-Russian candidate, and fails to see obvious violations in favour of their puppet. Double standards are your favourite way of thinking, it's a sad fact

Again: as for me - both candidates should not be allowed to take part in next elections. BTW, it's the way it should be according to Ukrainian laws, in case Supreme Court will abandon (probably wrong word here) current elections.

Kuchma is an experienced preferance-player. I think that in the next elections Ukraine will avoid such an obvious division, they'll find a candidate who'll suit both East with it's industry (80% of GNP) and West with it's mountain skiing.

Toad · « **Reply #99 on:** December 01, 2004, 02:11:15 PM »

My point is that your "evil Pole/EU/US" conspiracy rant is just typically blind.

All anyone of these parties has really said can be summed up by Powell.

Quote

"hope that Ukrainians will find a legal way forward as well as a political process based on the constitutional law".

Pretty scarey thought for you, eh? People wanting things solved in the courts according to Constitutional law? Makes you see the Poles/EU/US as the enemy?

bikekil · « **Reply #100 on:** December 01, 2004, 03:29:53 PM »

Boroda, what can i say...
hopefully we are supporting US with Iraq because of some other reason that breaking the EU apart... anyway i have no intention to break EU and i'm very glad that we are supporting the whole Iraq thing.
I'm also proud that as we were saying before we kept backing up our ally when the time came.

But from there , it's a darn good way to be a new Europe created but the US

I'm VERY glad to hear that someone finally thought that Poland can be a powerfull country, but... i have to dissapoint you - we don't have that powers and i'm afraid we will never be.

ANyway thank you for believing in our strenght

genozaur · « **Reply #101 on:** December 01, 2004, 08:55:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bikekil
Who called Ya, with the "contrgratulations" stuff before the votes were conted? Was it Putin? Maybe another conspiracy theory - Putin called Ya because he was sure that Ya is going to win the elections no matter what? If so, how happened thet Putin knew the results before the results were announced? Was it Ya, who claimed himself a winner of the frauded elections before we've seen the results?

Not that it means anything

Votes WERE COUNTED ! And they were counted by the official "counting commission". But a wise man said that they are not official because they were not published. And they were not published due to all that "revolution" - the Supreme Court of the Ukraine banned such a publication following the claims of "wide-spread fraud" during voting.
You should pay more attention to the technicalities so that you are able to win any battle in any part of the world.

genozaur · « **Reply #102 on:** December 01, 2004, 09:40:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
My point is that your "evil Pole/EU/US" conspiracy rant is just typically blind.

All anyone of these parties has really said can be summed up by Powell.
quote:"hope that Ukrainians will find a legal way forward as well as a political process based on the constitutional law".

Pretty scarey thought for you, eh? People wanting things solved in the courts according to Constitutional law? Makes you see the Poles/EU/US as the enemy?

And who or rather what is Mr Powell at press time? The outgoing Sec of State?
I totally agree with him.
But eleven years ago I did not agree with the stuff of the U.S. consulate in St Petersburg (Russia) who were selebrating "the Ocober victory of democracy" in Russia (after Mr Yeltsyn ordered the tanks to fire their cannons at the White House = nickname for the Russian house of Parliament, no connection to the U.S. White House, it so happened that it was also white before all those fires started inside after the shelling, very much like in Chile in September of 1971\?\).
Wait a second ... it reminds me about the Soviet 5-year plans but with the 11-year intervals : September 1971\?\ - Chile, ...(?), October 1993 - Russia, November 2004 - Ukraine. And what am I missing in the autumn months of 1982 ? Any suggestions ? Cuz I can't really rack up my mind on that. What did really happen in the fall of 1982 ?
And what about the strange correspondence with the 11-year cycle of the Sun activity ? In 1979 there was the peak of the Sun activity, so it looks that the third year after the peak of the Sun activity is critical for the brain functions of the democratically-minded citizens.
But why autumn ? What about other seasons of the year ?
Help! Help! Help!

bikekil · « **Reply #103 on:** December 02, 2004, 02:37:06 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by genozaur
Votes WERE COUNTED ! And they were counted by the official "counting commission". But a wise man said that they are not official because they were not published. And they were not published due to all that "revolution" - the Supreme Court of the Ukraine banned such a publication following the claims of "wide-spread fraud" during voting.
You should pay more attention to the technicalities so that you are able to win any battle in any part of the world.

Not sure what bettle you are talking about as i don't fight any and have no intention to fight a battle at any part of the world... i'm not a Imperialist

Here is the link to the news from the biggest web portal in Poland: http://info.onet.pl/1014520,12,item.html?MASK=8494882

it says that Putin contgratulated Ya two times. First when there was no official results and there were only initial results that people seen in TV in the night of elections. Secont time was when official results were known.
That's what i've seen heard in the TV news myself that day... so that are the technicalities i know and i see no reason to don't believe it

Boroda · « **Reply #104 on:** December 02, 2004, 08:48:52 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by bikekil
Boroda, what can i say...
hopefully we are supporting US with Iraq because of some other reason that breaking the EU apart... anyway i have no intention to break EU and i'm very glad that we are supporting the whole Iraq thing.
I'm also proud that as we were saying before we kept backing up our ally when the time came.

But from there , it's a darn good way to be a new Europe created but the US

I'm VERY glad to hear that someone finally thought that Poland can be a powerfull country, but... i have to dissapoint you - we don't have that powers and i'm afraid we will never be.

ANyway thank you for believing in our strenght

Sorry, I only quoted a person who's name I saw in Bartek's link, I didn't hear about him before, and was interested in his opinion. I, personally, don't think that the "conspiracy" is that complicated. Groups supposed in supporting Yu are prestty obvious. In fact Yu is more anti-Russian candidate then pro-Western.

Just a thought: what do you think about Rzecz Pospolita from Vilno to Crimea?