Author Topic: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School: Contains "God" (Read 849 times)

Nash · « **Reply #30 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:51:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You are letting your hatred of the word "God" transform you into some sort of Salinist era revisionist who eliminates uudesirable facts from the historic record.

Classic!

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #31 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:53:11 PM »

Eliminating words from original historical documents to suit current political whims is exactly what they did back then, and it is exactly what you are suggesting now.

Indeed, I hope that you were not serious when you said it..

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:53:15 PM »

Grun ya gotta remember, these Kanukistanis are descended from the ones who were too timid to fight off the Brits. Words like "independence" and "liberty" don't have the same meaning for them as for us. Don't expect outrage. They are pretty good neighbors despite their flaws.

Nash · « **Reply #33 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:54:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
By this article he appears to be a history teacher, but feel free to assume all sorts of wonderful "Maybe this, Maybe that" scenarious to defend and mitigate this outrage Nash...

And you still have not answered the question...

Well.... which one?

You and Rip are the only people "assuming".

Do me a favour, and keep tabs on this one Grun. Lemme know what becomes of it tomorrow or the day after, when the entire story emerges, and guys like you pretend that the whole thing never happened.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #34 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:56:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nash
Classic!

Thayts exactly what he suggested...

Quote

I don't believe in God, so do many others, the DoI was written a long time ago, maybe you can switch a few words and get with the program...

SWITCH A FEW WORDS AND GET WITH THE PROGRAM

Yea classic, Darkness at Noon classic...

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #35 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:57:44 PM »

Can you just state your support for or opposition to barring the Decleration from classrooms because it contains the word "God?"

Would yiou support such an act or oppose it?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #36 on:** November 24, 2004, 09:58:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by FUNKED1
Grun ya gotta remember, these Kanukistanis are descended from the ones who were too timid to fight off the Brits. Words like "independence" and "liberty" don't have the same meaning for them as for us. Don't expect outrage. They are pretty good neighbors despite their flaws.

Now thats a classic!

Nash · « **Reply #37 on:** November 24, 2004, 10:10:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Can you just state your support for or opposition to barring the Decleration from classrooms because it contains the word "God?"

Would yiou support such an act or oppose it?

Too easy! How could you even think of banning it? That's ridiculous...

You just don't get it....

A Principal had to take the unusual step of monitoring... then finally barring one particular teacher from using certain materials in his lessons; one them being the DoI.

The teacher sues.

His lawyer comes out and what does he say? He does not say, "I don't know why the principal banned him from teaching such a historic document"....

He says instead, "It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men, and to hide this fact from young fifth-graders in the name of political correctness is outrageous and shameful," said Williams' attorney, Terry Thompson.

We'll see how this develops tomorrow.

Funny though.... how this vague piece ends up in a Rip-post with a mangled title that manages to not only suggest that the DoI was banned outright in a school, but that it's also a California State-wide thing. Hilar....

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #38 on:** November 24, 2004, 10:21:45 PM »

That scenario is reasonable enough and I perfectly understand what you are saying.

Still, according to this the offical is eliminating everything with a refernce to the word "god." Including the Decleration which has it only one time.

I see no reasonable circumstances where the Decleration should be removed from the lesson plan only on one instance of the word God, or specificalkly "Nature's God" as it is written in the decleration. If the teacher gets to this point in the decleration, and then gives a 10minute lecture on the benefits of chritianity then by all means fire his bellybutton because he is a bad history teacher. But simply removing the decleration alltogerer from the lesson because of the word god, is doing a great disservice to the students.

"Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity.

Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."

"He hands out a lot of material and perhaps 5 to 10 percent refers to God and Christianity because that's what the founders wrote," said Thompson, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which advocates for religious freedom. "The principal seems to be systematically censoring material that refers to Christianity and it is pure discrimination.""

Nash · « **Reply #39 on:** November 24, 2004, 10:22:46 PM »

Got curious, looked around, finally landed here:

WHY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO I KEEP GETTING SUCKED INTO THIS STUFF.

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #40 on:** November 25, 2004, 01:36:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SLO
I don't believe in God, so do many others, the DoI was written a long time ago, maybe you can switch a few words and get with the program...

teach history yes...no need to preach it.

Because you dont change historical documents from the founding of your country just to suit current political correctness.

and make no mistake this is about political correctness and NOT seperation of church and state.

Most people that make this rediculous arguement have not a clue as to what that ammendment is about
and what is currently forgotten or omitted in this claim is another part of it you never hear
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Here this explains it a little better in part anyway

The Myth of the Seperation of Church and State

cpxxx · « **Reply #41 on:** November 25, 2004, 08:08:40 AM »

Whatever about the merits of the argument and it does look like this teacher was to some extent introducing religion in his classes. That, he has no business doing.

But aside from the issues in this case, believe me you really do not want religion to have any place in government in the USA. There is nothing more divisive. Not neccessarily between the religious and the secular but between opposing religions. Any so called history teacher must know this. On tiop of that any country where religion has an undue influence on the government is not a place you want to live. Ireland was like that for far too long and it crippled our freedoms. We came out of it OK but look at other countries where religion dominated. There are plenty of examples. Iran being one.

Whatever this case is about it is nothing to do with the DOI any argument that pretends otherwise is sophistry. This is not political correctness It goes a lot deeper than that.

lazs2 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 25, 2004, 09:03:37 AM »

free speech is much to important to just allow anyone to use it...

book and doucument banning is the only way... what they don't see can't harm them.

lazs

OIO · « **Reply #43 on:** November 25, 2004, 09:19:47 AM »

While im anti-religion in schools, this is too much.

The document is a HISTORICAL item. Whether it say 'god' or not its part of the nation's history and should be studied.

The document does not preach or attempt to indoctrinate children into a religion.

The whole thing is stupid. Shame on california.

lazs2 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 25, 2004, 09:33:54 AM »

oio... I don't think you get it... the word "god" is much too inflamatory to allow it to be heard or even seen in printed form. Those documents that contain it, no matter how historical, should be banned from schools... if you wish to teach history to children what is wrong with simply changing the wording of documents to something more "progressive".

To let the printed word get into schools uncensored would lead to all sorts of infection of our comrades. Next they might allow books like Hemmingway's "to have and to have not" in that contain racial slurs.

A whole generation could be infected without vigilance... they would be bombarded with all sorts of ideas and might make the wrong decision as to what is the right way to think about things... bombarding children with information is not a very progressive way to teach.

Next... you will be letting parents decide what types of schools they pay for and.... well... that will be the end.

Teachers and lawyers are much more astute about what your children should see and hear than you are.

lazs