Deer hunting killer is a "spiritual leader"

[wklink]

Originally posted by cpxxx
I notice he's described as Hmong from Laos. When I first saw his picture it occurred to me that he might be Hmong. Coincidentally I was re reading my copy of 'The Ravens' by Christopher Robbins which is a history of the FAC's who served in the CIA's secret war in Laos in the sixties.  The Hmong did most of the fighting on the American side and have suffered for it since, being heavily persecuted by the Communist government.   Apparently the Hmong are essentially one generation away from being stone age hill tribespeople.

I'm guessing, but he must have being involved in guerrlla warfare when he was in Laos. So veggie speculation as to the possibility that he became desensitised to killing by shooting deer is nonsense.  He must have killed men before probably in Laos and probably in battle.   How else could you explain the fact that all of the people he shot were armed and could have shot back.  He hunted and killed them like the pro he probably is. Taking the scope off his SKS is a clue there.  Somethng must have cracked in him in some way. There is a lot more to this than a simple dispute over a tree stand or racist remarks. If one of the hunters fired first that may have pushed him over the edge.  It's all speculation until we hear the facts.

We can anticipate this argument in his defence when it comes to court.  

The fate of the Hmong in general is a tragedy and probably those hunters are in fact another casualty of the war in Laos.

The guy is 36.  That would have made him about seven at the end of the Vietnam War.  I am willing to guess that he left Laos not long afterward.  

I know they train them young but I don't think this is the reason.

[Leslie]

I've hunted a long time, and most deer hunters I've hunted with say they're hunting soon as they leave the clubhouse and headed to the woods.  They always have their rifles with them on the four-wheelers in the rack without exception, even if just out for a ride to scout or such.  I carried a .44 bulldog with me in addition to the rifle.  (Well at least I did back in my hunting days.)  Many hunters carry handguns with them.

One reason is to be prepared for someone on the property like this fellow, who may have bad intentions.  A few years ago there was an incident where some hunters were robbed and killed while out hunting.  You don't know who is out in the woods these days, and it just doesn't sound right, these hunters not being armed...all of them.  

Deer hunters take hunting seriously.  It's serious business about others poaching, though there are right and wrong ways to go about dealing with poaching.  Now I'm not saying this is what happened, and it's just my 0.02 worth, but I think the bad guy in this case was approached in a way that scared him.  He might have thought he was about to be shot.

Will be devil's advocate here.  Not trying to justify his actions in any way, but as a possible scenario, if the guy was scared and nervous, he would be capable of anything, as probably anyone here could be under certain circumstances.  Most hunters I know, would have been on the ready to shoot a poacher if the poacher made a move with his weapon.  At least that is the standard operating procedure discussed amongst my friends and me where I have deer hunted.  Of course it's talk, and no one knows what they'll do until they do it.  I wouldn't want to get shot if I was the hunter and found someone in my stand.  I wouldn't want my friend(s) to get shot.  I wouldn't want to get caught poaching if I was the poacher.

The smart thing to do would have been not approach the man at all, return to the clubhouse and figure out how to handle it.  And that may not mean going back there and running him off, but think first before acting.

Unfortunately, there is no easy way.  

I suspect this poaching was a year round thing for some of the neighbors, and they didn't care if there was a club there or not.  It's possible the poachers did need the food.  Then there's the cultural factor, which makes this situation a different breed of cat altogether the way I see it.

You just never know.  All this will come out during the trial.  Did the article or someone say game wardens had given up on arresting them?  Hope I'm wrong but almost sounds like it could be a hunting ground war zone, or one in the making.




Les

[lazs2]

bet hunters around there carry handguns now tho.   I allways carried one too.   I carried a 22 auto for coupe de gras shots if nothing else.

lazs

[kbman]

Howdy Lazs,
                     it's "coup de grace" actually,
a coup de gras would be a "blow of the fat".

kbman

[straffo]

Almost kbman but as he wrote "coupe" and not "coup" it would be a "slice of fat"  

[Leslie]

Lazs, the game wardens around these parts carry M-16 full auto rifles, the job is so dangerous.




Les

[JoOwEn]

lol I was just kidding. Its obvious this guy went nuts. Some people go nuts unprovoked and some people go nuts when provoked. Now thats more realistic I think.

[lazs2]

well.... .22's work good on that slice of fat thing in any case.

not bad on berserk laotians either I would think.    Buddy of mine is a forest service guy and they issued him a mini 14.

lazs

[Excel1]

Poachers demonstrate contempt for landowners and legal hunters just by the act of poaching. As a land owner it's not so much the fact that they are taking game that they are not entitled too that annoys me,( if they ask me I might let them hunt)
it's that there is some armed bastard that I don't know from adam wandering around my property without my knowledge.
I would think most poachers would be aware how property owners feel about poaching, but it doesn't stop them. So to my way of thinking that puts poachers potentialy a few rungs lower on the sanity ladder. But your not going to find that out until you confront them. When I did, the guy was barely on the ladder, he was truly a sandwich short of a picnic. There was no fear, guilt or an apology and he didn't leave quietly. There was however, justification, beligerance and ranting verbal abuse from him despite me being armed with an ar15 and getting more pissed by the minute. If I was in his shoes you wouldn't have seen me for dust, I would have been out of there... but I'm almost sane. He eventually walked, he had too, I didn't give him a choice. For me it was a lesson learned, but those hunters killed in Wisconsin may have been more trusting.

Excel

[lazs2]

exel... I believe you are right.   I am allways more cautious around potentialy dangerous situations.   I know I would have felt very uncomfortable in the woods there and had my handgun out or easy to draw.   just like when people aren't armed and things get angry it is allways best to keep arms length.

lazs

[Dinger]

actually, Vang's confession sounds fairly believable (and the female, Jessica, was not the male, Lauren, hiding behind the ATV. He also returned fire, so two of the initial group had access to firearms -- whether the same gun or not, I don't know); guy not looking too closely, or caring too much, about private property goes hunting, gets caught. Confrontation ensues; owners are understandably pissed and belligerent. Someone makes the tactical mistake of throwing in some racial insults
   ---let me stop here a second. Racism isn't a justification in this case; far from it. But if you're threatening to shoot a poacher,make sure he knows you'll shoot him for being a poacher, and not for some reason entirely unrelated.  If Vang were a drunk hillbilly with an AR-15, would you yell insults about his recent marriage with his sister-mother? Now here you're dealing with a member of a group that's been told both here and in SE Asia that they were less than human, and their response over there has been to fight back mercilessly. --

okay, so then something happens -- I don't know, a twitch, a warning shot, something -- and the guy starts killing.

These are based on speculation, but here are some lessons I draw from the story:

   A) If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
   B) Don't piss off the guy with the gun, especially if you have one too. I don't care what you've been drinking.
   C) If shoot at someone, make sure you hit. Vang's story may not be credible, but he claims the first shot was fired by the rightful owners, the range 100 feet, and the round fell 30-40 feet short. As a "reaction shot", that's poor; as a first shot, that's unacceptable.
   D) If you receive a call for help RT, the gist of which is "a nut with a gun has just shot all of us", do not hop on your ATV and drive right up to said nut. If you do drive past him, do not stop -- keep going until you hit cover.
    E) if you're bridging the morning hunt and the evening Packers game by drinking, let someone sober deal with the poachers.
    F) Before a belligerent confrontation, make sure you have the firepower advantage. Five guys with one or two breach-loading rifles have a significant disadvantage against one guy with a 20-round 7.62x39 clip.
    G) If the defendant's confession, in which he admits at the very least least to multiple counts of second-degree murder,contains a reference to his adversaries using racial epithets, the media will seize on this; conservatives will jump up and down insisting that this is an attempt to make murder "PC". Give me a break guys.
   H) Next season, the SKS is going to be very popular indeed.

[lazs2]

I don't know how many were armed but they should have been and they should have been ready.   I doubt that much verbal abuse occured unless the guy was beligerent himself.

The SKS will never be very much more popular than it is right .... it is a crap gun and everyone knows it.

lazs