Author Topic: The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability  (Read 833 times)

Offline Sparks

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« on: January 20, 2001, 09:00:00 AM »
I often find myself in a "defensive postion"  

At those times I have altitude I will try to dive and extend to get separation or to plain get out of dodge. This very often is unsuccessful.

It strikes me then that that tactic will ONLY work when your aircraft has 2 characteristics compared with your attacker.
1. It accelerates faster
2. It compresses at a higher speed.

My reasoning is this:-
If the oppo can accelerate faster than me then he will lose less altitude than me for the equivalent speed gain and so build a diving advantage over me by the time we reach the deck.
If the oppo compresses later than you then no matter how steep you dive away then he will always catch you.

Thoughts please.....

Sparks

Offline Lephturn

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2001, 09:34:00 AM »
Well, it's not that cut and dried in my experience.

I fly the P-47D.  There are quite a few planes that fit those two bills in comparison to what I fly.  However, the P-47 has fantastic diving speed.  Now it's not a good accelerator compared to most everything else in the plane set, but it dives well at high speed.  Lets compare with a Spit IX.  The Spit a very high critical mach and has a high compression limit.  It gets sluggish due to high control forces at high speed, but with trim you can control it to very high speeds.  I can still out-dive a Spit IX if I do a couple of things.  First, use a 0G extension.  Second, have enough separation to keep him from getting guns on until I can get to high speed.

Now by a 0G extension I mean dive in a downward  arc and keep the G meter at 0 G's until you are either going pretty damn fast or you don't want to go to a steeper angle.  If we start from a very slow speed, like 180 Mph, the Spit will out-accelerate me and catch me at first, so I need some separation to stay out of the way.  However, as the speed increases over about 350, the Jug's diving ability will kick in and I will leave just about anything in the game eating my exhaust.  I can level the Jug out at 500 Mph and cruise home.  Now, if the Spit pilot is smart, he can "cut the angle" by diving at a more shallow angle and hoping to catch me as my speed drops off after I level out.  There are two problems for the Spit driver in this case, one being that I can get a LONG way before he gets me, and the second being that my kite will hold it's speed better going fast than his will.  So maybe he catches me, and maybe not.  Either way I have gained enough separation to either reach a friendly area or reverse and blast him in the face  if he is closing.

However, generally speaking, you are correct.  You don't want to try diving away from a great accelerating plane like the 109-G10 unless you have a lot of separation or are quite fast to begin with.  If you can get far enough away, the G10's low compression speed will allow you to escape.

My worst enemies in this regard are the F4U and the P51.  Both of those planes are faster on the deck and dive very well.  I have to be VERY careful around these enemy planes, as I can't necessarily pull my normal 500 MPH-hair on fire-screaming like a girl on the radio-escape move and live.    Sometimes I can get away with it anyway.  Remember that if you get VERY close to the ground your icon range decreases to 3.0 I think.  In addition, if there are other friendlies in the area, the enemy won't be as eager to dive to follow you.  So even if you can't be sure of an escape, many times you can use visibility and other threats to cover your escape.  It doesn't take very long to check out of the area in a Jug at 50 feet doing 550 Mph. <G>  If you can distract the enemy for a few seconds by the time he looks back you can be a spec that is rapidly vanishing.

What plane do you normally fly?  We can discuss the planes you need to be carful of and maybe some of the attributes of that plane you can use to escape if you like.  

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Offline Spatula

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2001, 02:38:00 PM »
The plane that can out-dive you and has a higher top deck speed, normally gets that ability at a compromise to slow-speed turn performance.

What does that mean? If ya cant out-run em, you can out-turn em. If ya cant out-turn em, you can normally out-run em. (this aint always a hard and fast rule). What i mean, is that a runaway tactic aint allways the best option - it depends on your plane, and the cons plane and the percieved performance differences.

I fly the P51 90% of the time, it will escape nearly anything if you dont let it get too slow. If you let any plane get slow you have rely on its acceleration to save your silly arnold. For planes that accelerate badly (from a slow speed) like the P51, P47 F4u etc it would make sense to not get slow, this way you can command the fight.

There is another trick you can do to unwary spit and 109 pilots (well just about any bad hi-speed handling plane) - make them chase you in a dive when your close to the deck, so you hit 500Mph just at minimum pull-out distance for your plane (experience will tell ya) and watch them lawn dart     Good pilots wont normally follow a move like this.

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[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 01-20-2001).]
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Offline Tac

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2001, 03:48:00 PM »
Hmm.. I think the F4U accelerates quite well.

P51 and Jug are slow accelerator aye.

When im in a jug's or pony's 6 and I see them nose down and zip to d3.0 in a split second I just half loop and go the other way.

If any of you have a film while flying a pony, i'd appreciate it, i've tried the plane and I do keep it above 250-300 almost all the time, yet I dont see any hope when the fight gets to the deck and I run out of alt to dive and runstang away from trouble  

Offline Lephturn

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2001, 04:18:00 PM »
Tac.... uh.. the Hog?  It doesn't accelerate well at all IMHO.  Ok, maybe better than the Jug, but I'll bet the Pony is as good.  I think the Hog is at the lower end of the acceleration scale.  I used to drive the Hog all the time, and the one way FW's could beat me was to pull a few high-G reversals to get me slowed down, then accelerate away like I was tied to a tree.  

Anybody with some acceleration data or tests feel free to jump in here and shed some light. <G>

Try a Hog in low-speed level acceleration and Spits, Georges, 109's, FW's, Yaks, La5s, Typhoons... heck most everything will leave you eating exhaust.

That's level acceleration though.  In a dive, the Hog will wind up almost as fast as the Jug.  Indeed, the ONE plane I can't use the diving escape on reliably is the F4U.  The Hog trumps every attribute I have in the Jug, period.  Well OK I have 2 more guns than a D Hog, but the C's have the 47 beat on firepower too.

If you find yourself getting beat in diving situations versus a Jug or a Pony, you need to look at how you are executing the dive.  You should be using a zero G dive to get maximum speed as fast as possible.  The Jug doesn't dive all that fantastically well until you do a 0 G dive.  THEN it takes off earthward so fast it will scare you.  This is easy to do in AH where we have a nice G meter so we can push forward just enough to maintain around 0G for as long as possible based on speed and angle.

If you want to freak out all those Hog drivers, try flying the F6F-5 and when they try to run, use a 0 G extension.  You will catch and nail them in the acceleration phase. <G>  If you miss the shot, they will out-run you over time, but up to 400 Mph or so in the dive, you'll eat their lunch. Of course if you ARE the Hog driver... be very scared of F6F's on your six.  



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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Offline Spatula

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2001, 09:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:

If any of you have a film while flying a pony, i'd appreciate it, i've tried the plane and I do keep it above 250-300 almost all the time, yet I dont see any hope when the fight gets to the deck and I run out of alt to dive and runstang away from trouble  

I will check to see what films i have, i dont do much deck fighting in the pony (for obvious reasons.

Sounds like you let the fight get too low to start with. Your right, you cant get away from jack toejam if ya slow and on the deck. So, dont go there, period. You should aim to leave at least 3-4k under you at a min. If your in a disadvantageous position at that point then its time to think about tryin to equalise the E stakes and using that alt to flee  

If you do get stuck down low just make sure you aint so slow you can no longer maneuver in the vert effectively. Use a notch or two of flaps to help the stall turning if it progresses to that, but ya as good as dead at that point. I got into a big scrap with a superior E yak last night and out-turned him (stall buzzer going like mad) with up to 3 nothchs of flaps :\
 
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Offline BaneX

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2001, 08:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
If any of you have a film while flying a pony, i'd appreciate it, i've tried the plane and I do keep it above 250-300 almost all the time, yet I dont see any hope when the fight gets to the deck and I run out of alt to dive and runstang away from trouble

Tac one of the guys you shuld try and ask about that is RWY or Wardog and Hangtime. These guys are all good on the deck in a 51. Also, while Im not the best I'll try and get ya some film of me on the deck.

 
Quote
Ok, maybe better than the Jug, but I'll bet the Pony is as good. I think the Hog is at the lower end of the acceleration scale. I used to drive the Hog all the time

Don't know Leph.. it seems to me that f4u has the better acceleration than the pony, but it could be just my flying who knows lol.

Bane
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Offline Dingy

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2001, 10:09:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:
Tac.... uh.. the Hog?  It doesn't accelerate well at all IMHO.  Ok, maybe better than the Jug, but I'll bet the Pony is as good.  

IMO, the Hog dives better than the Pony.  I cant count the number of times I've run down Hogs only to see them dive away and slowly outdistance me.

-Ding

Offline Lephturn

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2001, 07:54:00 PM »
Yep, no argument there, the Hog is one of the best divers in the game, possibly the best.  Only the Jug could be better IMHO.  If you get into a long enough chase though, the Pony will eventually run a Hog down, but it will take a level chase to do it.

In the acceleration side, I dont know if the Hog or the Pony are better, but they both suck compared to most of the rest of the plane set.    In either bird, if you rely on acceleration to get you out of trouble, you will die in short order. <G>

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-01-2001).]

LJK Raubvogel

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The "RUNAWAY" defense and compressability
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2001, 12:50:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Spatula:
I will check to see what films i have, i dont do much deck fighting in the pony (for obvious reasons.
 

I still have the film of our little scrap Spatula   I'm still pissed at myself for that hehe.

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LJK_Raubvogel
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[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 02-07-2001).]