Author Topic: Gunnery  (Read 854 times)

Taff208

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Gunnery
« on: January 21, 2001, 06:25:00 PM »
Just how much lead do you need to make with your sights in high G turns in similar fighters say Spit IX's 250knts at 250yards. I can't seem to hit anything in high G turns! I've even tried pulling a lead so the target dissappears below the nose before easing back to see him again

Offline gospel

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Gunnery
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2001, 06:35:00 PM »
Well, there are many who can answer that better than I, but imo, it is best not to try those high G shots.

Best to conserve your energy when the cons turns at high G by using vertical moves such as the high yoyo.

After a few high G turns, the con will deplete most of his energy, and persent a much easier shot.

Just because you are in similar aircraft does not mean that you should try to match him move for move.

Besides, in real life, the guns would likely jam if used in a high G turn.  

gospel
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Offline Rocket

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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2001, 06:36:00 PM »
Usually at that speed and distance you will be pulling alot of Gs to pull lead for the shot.  Your shot will have to be with the con below your nose outta sight.  I suggest for some great reading to check out Andy Bush's article over at SimHQ.com as it is done from AH  

S!
Rocket

Offline Andy Bush

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Gunnery
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
Taff

Here's a picture of a typical lead point for the conditions you describe. Think of the point as about where the turn and slip indicator is. (Please disregard the P-51 in the picture.)

   

For more info on A2A gunnery in AH, see the gunnery articles at:
 http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/air_combat.shtml


Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 01-21-2001).]

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2001, 07:23:00 AM »
How much lead to use?  Well it depends.  

First it depends on what your weapons are.  The .50 cal guns have a very straight trajectory and don't drop very much.  Some of the cannons with slower muzzle velocities drop much faster.  Practice firing  level at 1 G and you will see how the bullets drop.  Now every G you pull above that is going to increase the amount of lead you need.  Once you are pulling a few G's, the bullets will be falling well below your line of vision, making it very difficult to aim.  The only way to really figure out how much lead to use, is to practice.  Make sure your convergence is pretty close if you are trying these shots, I'd go between 200 and 300 yards at least.  Then it's just down to paying attention to how many G's you are pulling and seeing how much lead you require.  Fire short bursts and watch for hit sparkles (which you can see through your cockpit unfortunately) to tell you when you've got it right.

The bottom line is that a high-G tracking shot is very difficult to make, and not what I would call a "high percentage" shot for most of us.  I'll normally try a different type of shot if I can because they are easier to connect with and give me a better chance at a kill.  When you are pulling lead for a shot you are normally burning E, so you want to make that shot count since if you don't, you have given up some of your advantage to the bad guy.

Instead of taking a high-G tracking shot, you can drop into lag or pure pursuit (assuming you are close enough to be at convergence anyway) and wait for the bogey to present you with a better shot.  This is a gamble of course, and will depend on the plane match up to some degree.  I can't wait for a shot very long in my Jug vs. an F4U in a turning battle, since it's just better than my plane in almost every area so I may not get another one.  However, if I am in a Zeke and turning with a Spit IX, I know I can out-turn him in the long run, so I can afford to be patient for a while and take a good shot.  It also depends on my E state, as if I have an E advantage, I can use lag pursuit to maintain it and wait for a really good shot opportunity to burn that extra E for lead and a good killshot.  This is how folks get "out turned" by a plane that does not turn as well. The plane with the poorer sustained turn performance can often manage an energy advantage and patienty maintain it, then burn it in seconds using instantaneos turn rate for the lead required to make the kill shot.

Now the second option, is I can change what type of shot I take.  I can go for a snapshot instead of a tracking shot.  Now a snapshot will normally mean a shorter burst of fire on the target, so you need a plane with decent guns to make this work well.  What I do is instead of tracking with the bogey, I'll turn early and aim at a point where I think he will be going.  I then fly straight at that point at between 0 and 1 G, and when he gets close I open up.  The idea is to put bullets in his path, and let him fly through the stream.  By doing this I have taken the extra G out of my shot, so I have a good view of the target and I can predict much more accurately where my fire is going to go.  As a guy that flies a BnZ plane, the P47, I use this shot quite a bit against better turning planes.  It's the only shot I get against a Zeke.  

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"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-22-2001).]

Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
(chuckle!)

Just so that we get this straight...

All rounds 'drop' the same. Gravity affects all rounds the same.

What we mean to say is that rounds have different velocities...different when initially fired, and different along their flight path due to aerodynamic qualities. Because of this, for a given range, the time of flight for various rounds differ...and therefore the amount of gravity drop (for a given range) differs as well. When we say that a .50 cal fires 'flatter' than a 30mm cannon, we are referring to the projectile flight paths over a given distance.

Now, on the matter of the effect of G on lead...it has no effect other than for an aerodynamic ballistics value called 'trajectory shift'...this is a relatively small value and probably is not modelled in AH.

The lead requirement is strictly a function of target behavior relative to the shooter. The primary variables are target angle off and target velocity.

Why do we include the idea of G in our thinking? Simply because we want to track the target. In order to keep our gun pointed with the proper lead, we have to turn our aiming reference at a rate that will keep our rounds impacting the target. This rate (and the corresponding G) will vary with closure and angle off.

What this all boils down to is that the lead point as seen through the HUD will be the same for a given set of parameters. The amount of G necessary to hold that lead point will vary with pilot intent (snapshot versus tracking shot) and the relative angular and closure parameters.

Andy

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »
Hehehe.  Thanks for the better explanation Andy.  

What's heavier, a ton of stone or a ton of feathers?  

Now where are those two rocks... I'm on my way to the Tower of Pizza. <G>

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-22-2001).]

Taff208

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Gunnery
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »
Thanks for the replies folks, all comments noted.