Author Topic: Define "Victory in the War on Terror" (Read 3986 times)

Elfie · « **Reply #30 on:** December 03, 2004, 09:31:22 PM »

There were many reasons Liz, that was just one of them. WMD, support of terrorists (not necesarrily Al-Qeada) etc.

Bush never declared war on just AQ, he declared war on ALL terrorism. Iraq had at least 2 terrorist training camps. One was just outside Baghdad and the other was in the north iirc.

I think Liz had it right when he said we win when there is an end to state sponsored terrorism. When that will be, I have no idea.

Many people seem to forget that we had more reasons than just WMD for invading Iraq (especially Europe) and that Saddam did have ties to terrorists but not necessarily to AQ.

Sparks · « **Reply #31 on:** December 03, 2004, 09:58:30 PM »

OK - to get back to the question which most seem to be avoiding - when can we say "We've won" .

It seems ridiculous to me to be carrying out a campaign where we can't associate a specific action to a specific goal in the campaign and whether even the specific minor goal is achievable.

Example :- WW2 - invasion of Italy - goal to take troops from the France invasion effort and to give another avenue of access to Germany - oh and to liberate Italy (side issue). A specific and achievable operation towards the end point - invasion of Germany.

But in the "War on Terror" we haven't even got a clear end point so, although we can ligitimise certain aspects of the invasions of Iraq and Afghaistan for other reasons, we have no clear idea on how or even IF they will be achieveing the victory we are seeking. It is quite possible the eventual outcome in Iraq will worsen the situation of fundamentalist Islam worldwide as it is more than likely that an Islamic Cleric controlled government will be in power by the end of 2005 - hardly unfreindly to fundamentalists if maybe not directly supportive.

So what IS the goal - what is victory. When can ALL our troops come home ??? 10 years, 20,30 ???

Fundamentalists are being indoctrinated the world over , Europe, Asia, East Asia (look at the Phillipines and Thailand), and even the USA so do we have to kill them all ? Imprison all fundamental Muslims? Ban the teaching of Islam ? What needs to happen?

WHAT IS VICTORY IN THE WAR ON TERROR ??????

-tronski- · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2004, 02:16:38 AM »

Victory = Ending govt. supported terrorism...

That way terrorism can be left to be funded by rich saudi's....you know, the old fashioned way...

Tronsky

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #33 on:** December 04, 2004, 06:33:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SLO
what people find a little wierd is that you went for Saddam using Terrorism in your justification...

To me Saddam was an Iraqi problem, hmm more or less a regional problem that MUSLIMS should of taken care of with our support, not our problem though, nor yours for that matter, trying to blind us to the fact that Usama Bin Ladin is so-so important in the big picture, bite me you freaks, he is the ONE RESPONSIBLE for 9/11, he is the one carrying that Religeous Nuthood to a whole new level when dealing with GOD's enemies.
You have NO proof of a relationship between SADDAM & OBL, yet you persist in your justifications that the Iraqi invasion was for 9/11 and the war on terrorism...sorry BOB, I don't bite so easily.

Afhganistan and OBL were related, hence the support for that action. But your boys are dying on foreign soil for greed, mis-direction of morales and a lack at communication as a whole, you should have listened to Colin Powell, but the Hawks won that one.

Long live National Interests

hehe, dont let your blood boil too much SLO. The Propaganda machine here in the US is remarkable. And for those that can see it, it is terrifying.

Use this theory whenever you try to see why the US is doing something in the middle east. OIL.
And see if everything falls into place.
The big oil corps are running our military with every intention on controlling the 75% of the worlds oil reserves that would be controlled by the muslims within 20 years.
If the muslims control the oil, they control the trillions. The shift of wealth and power is unacceptable to the christians in high places and hence, the war on terror will be won when and only when, the controll of the middle east oil is firmly in the hands of the chrisitans! Wait and see.
The Saudi oil fields is in christian friendly hands, the Iraq oil fields will be shortly, the caspian sea oil reserves are being piped through afghanistan to pakistan, a christian friendly govt., even though before 911 they supported al queada as well as other anti US terror groups.
Wait and see !!!
I am not saying I am opposed to this objective. Quite the contrary. But I am opposed to the deception.

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #34 on:** December 04, 2004, 06:38:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Elfie
There were many reasons Liz, that was just one of them. WMD, support of terrorists (not necesarrily Al-Qeada) etc.

Elfie, ummm, what WMD's were there? Which terorrists groups were in Iraq? Why not pakistan? Saudi arabia? (home of the 911 hijackers). How about N korea? We dont care about lunatic dictators threatening to throw around a cupple nukes if his denmands werent met, but we are going in to see if saddam has a can of mustard gas buried in the desert? hehe, go back to sleep dude. the real world is a scary place.

lazs2 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 04, 2004, 08:48:07 AM »

WH... I am not sure there was any real deception... for what? because Bush is business partners with osama or some such? The sadman had a nuke program and he would have had another... plenty of countries with bad people do but this guy was invading neigbors and under sanction by the allmighty UN.. he was a bad man and if he didn't have the WMD's and got rid of em or hid em before we got there then he would have em sometime soon.

So long as there is no ecomomic or any other type of freedom... so long as the region is ruled by despots and fanatics who torture and kill their people.... they will create terrorists. The real war on terror will end when the economy of those countries improves and the religious or other despots no longer buy gold toilet seats while their people grub around in the sand hoping to not get arrested or worse.

If there was a "deception" then it was a good one.. the intelegence community as a whole... the world one.... was fooled

lazs

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #36 on:** December 04, 2004, 10:25:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
WH... I am not sure there was any real deception... for what? because Bush is business partners with osama or some such? The sadman had a nuke program and he would have had another... plenty of countries with bad people do but this guy was invading neigbors and under sanction by the allmighty UN.. he was a bad man and if he didn't have the WMD's and got rid of em or hid em before we got there then he would have em sometime soon.

So long as there is no ecomomic or any other type of freedom... so long as the region is ruled by despots and fanatics who torture and kill their people.... they will create terrorists. The real war on terror will end when the economy of those countries improves and the religious or other despots no longer buy gold toilet seats while their people grub around in the sand hoping to not get arrested or worse.

If there was a "deception" then it was a good one.. the intelegence community as a whole... the world one.... was fooled

lazs

"we were decieved!" US intelligence community, after the invasion of Iraq.
"You aint foolin nobody!!!" World, prior to the US invsion of Iraq.

ghi · « **Reply #37 on:** December 04, 2004, 01:07:12 PM »

I don't think victory on ''war on terror'' means, control over last huge oil reserve around Caspian sea, just stabile flow on the market. If tomorrow the west world discover new energy sources,who's going to buy their oil? those turbanez will go back from mercedes to camel.
because in last 50 years they made lot of money out of oil but did't use them for technologic, industrial progres, to create jobs in other sectors, or ecomony independent of oil revenue
On the other side of the oil bussines, our western goverments make more money/barell in taxes than those selling crude oil.
this world is fk up

Rino · « **Reply #38 on:** December 04, 2004, 06:36:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nilsen
In the days after 911 _we_ were very close to winning the war on terror when alomost the entire world supported america.

Then america fumbled and invaded Iraq...

I seem to remember alot of you folks whining about the
"thousands" of Afghan civvies we were supposedly killing.

Of course America was the darling of the world as long as
we acted like victims. The moment we decided to act, the true
sentiments were expressed, no real surprise there.

Arlo · « **Reply #39 on:** December 04, 2004, 06:44:32 PM »

A definition was asked for. Here's one:

Ex-wife dying.

Maniac · « **Reply #40 on:** December 04, 2004, 06:47:09 PM »

Wheres the WMD?

Arlo · « **Reply #41 on:** December 04, 2004, 06:50:08 PM »

She's still in town. I'm bribing milk truck drivers and giving a description.

Elfie · « **Reply #42 on:** December 04, 2004, 07:01:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Elfie, ummm, what WMD's were there? Which terorrists groups were in Iraq? Why not pakistan? Saudi arabia? (home of the 911 hijackers). How about N korea? We dont care about lunatic dictators threatening to throw around a cupple nukes if his denmands werent met, but we are going in to see if saddam has a can of mustard gas buried in the desert? hehe, go back to sleep dude. the real world is a scary place.

First of all, I listed WMD as a reason we went into Iraq, which it was. So far that reason hasnt panned out for us. Otoh there is a significant amount of chemical weapons that were known to have existed but have yet to be accounted for. (That has been discussed in previous threads)

I have no idea which terrorist group(s) were using the training camps in Iraq. The fact that there were terrorist training camps is enough for me.

You ask...Why not Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia? I have no idea, maybe you should ask the gov't?

Not all of the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis, the one thing they ALL had in common was Al-Qeada. Iirc 11 of 19 hijackers were Saudi, no idea what nationality the others were, nor do I care.

Once we are done in Iraq you can bet the government has the next target already selected.

You also asked..why not North Korea? The answer there is obvious. NK would use nukes on our troops.

Go back to sleep? Maybe you should wake up. Saddam had MiG's and huge weapons cache's buried in the sand, maybe some of those unaccounted for chemical weapons are there as well. Only time will tell.

Quote

When can ALL our troops come home ??? 10 years, 20,30 ???

Sparks, I have no idea on that one. I'm not sure if anyone has an answer. I think victory is acheived when there is no more state sponsored terrorism, when nations no longer harbor terrorists. When that will be I have no idea.

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #43 on:** December 04, 2004, 08:21:46 PM »

Elfie, that last post of yours is a testimonial for NOT going to war in Iraq. You are absolutely correct on every point. The logical conclusion is, we are either the lamest bunch of intel goofs on the planet, or we are getting the OIL.
Oh, we will find WMD's, AFTER we have secured the oil for the christian forces. After we find the WMD's, we will pull most of our troops out. We cannot find the WMD's before that because, there would be no reason whatsoever to be in Iraq anymore, just like if we found Bin Laden, there would be no reason whatsoever for us to be in afghanistan. Its the OIL, its the OIL, its the OIL.!! cut and paste brother, time will tell.

Arlo · « **Reply #44 on:** December 04, 2004, 08:26:39 PM »

Over two bucks a gallon. Where's the gorram oil? Heh.