Author Topic: Wheel Drag vs. Drag Due to Lift  (Read 673 times)

Offline Straiga

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Wheel Drag vs. Drag Due to Lift
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2004, 03:13:18 AM »
Did you get this info from the manual? Have you flown the C-172 and how many hours do have in it?
 Pilot manuals are basically guides on what a plane will do, I cant remember when a manual came close to what the plane actually does in real life.
 Let me ask you this does a C-172 fly with full flaps extended Yes or No? Is Yes how slow does the airplane fly with full flaps down. Does it fly slower with 10 degrees of flaps or 40 degrees ?  Have you ever aborted a landing at 2 ft off the ground for a go around with full flaps extended? If yes then why cant you takeoff with full flaps extended? and after liftoff bring up the flaps slowly inground effect accelerate to Vy then climb out. Fly the plane not the manual.
 I been instructing for over 30 years in singles, multi's and helicopters. Showing the student all of what the airframe will do and not do, is part of the learning process. As an instructor we have to allow the student to get into a bad position to show what not to do, we also show what you can do other then what the manual says to do. To be a good sound pilot you have to experience all of what the airframe will and will not do.

 There have been many a day that I cant get more power out of the engine than what the manual said for a given day, or a better fuel burn at a different power setting than what the books says.
 In the days when the airplane first started to fly there were no manuals, aerodynamic therory changed on a daily bases and so did flight training manuals to this day. But when you get behind the controls its a different story. I have flown airplanes and helicopters for the first time without picking up the manual at all.

 Im not trying to belittle anybody here, but you would freak, of what my dad and myself have done in a 172 to make it fly out of some of the places we have taken it into.
 Have you taken a 172 and shot touch and gos takeoffs over and over again without making a pattern approach just buy staying over the runway center line. In a stong head wind takeoff, climb, drift back and land, takeoff, climb, drift back and land. Theres no manual to tell you how to fly this way.

Straiga
CFII Airplane Single & Multi-Engine, Helicopter
ATP Airplane Single & Multi-Engine, Helicopter
Flight Engineer Jet

Offline bunch

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Wheel Drag vs. Drag Due to Lift
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2004, 05:49:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Straiga
Did you get this info from the manual?  Have you flown the C-172 and how many hours do have in it?


Yes from the POH & from my CFI, I have 79 hours in C-172s

Quote
Originally posted by Straiga Pilot manuals are basically guides on what a plane will do, I cant remember when a manual came close to what the plane actually does in real life.


No doubt, I was doing stalls in one yesterday, it was still not stalling with nothing on the airspeed indicator flaps up & flaps down (which goes down to 40kts), at least 10kts lower than Vs0 & at least 15 lower than Vs1
 
Quote
Originally posted by Straiga Let me ask you this does a C-172 fly with full flaps extended Yes or No? Is Yes how slow does the airplane fly with full flaps down. Does it fly slower with 10 degrees of flaps or 40 degrees ?


Certainly it flys, but it's like having a fluff'n drag chute out.  I dont know top speed with full flaps, but  definitely slower than with 10degrees out

Quote
Originally posted by Straiga Have you ever aborted a landing at 2 ft off the ground for a go around with full flaps extended? If yes then why cant you takeoff with full flaps extended?


I've aborted in ground effect several times, but dont know the excact distance above the runway.  I didnt write that you couldnt T/O with full flaps, I wrote that I wouldnt (However, you would have to admit that it is a different situation being a few feet over the numbers with 50kts of airspeed than on top of them with none).

Quote
Originally posted by Straiga and after liftoff bring up the flaps slowly inground effect accelerate to Vy then climb out. Fly the plane not the manual.
 I been instructing for over 30 years in singles, multi's and helicopters. Showing the student all of what the airframe will do and not do, is part of the learning process. As an instructor we have to allow the student to get into a bad position to show what not to do, we also show what you can do other then what the manual says to do. To be a good sound pilot you have to experience all of what the airframe will and will not do.

 There have been many a day that I cant get more power out of the engine than what the manual said for a given day, or a better fuel burn at a different power setting than what the books says.
 In the days when the airplane first started to fly there were no manuals, aerodynamic therory changed on a daily bases and so did flight training manuals to this day. But when you get behind the controls its a different story. I have flown airplanes and helicopters for the first time without picking up the manual at all.

 Im not trying to belittle anybody here, but you would freak, of what my dad and myself have done in a 172 to make it fly out of some of the places we have taken it into.
 Have you taken a 172 and shot touch and gos takeoffs over and over again without making a pattern approach just buy staying over the runway center line. In a stong head wind takeoff, climb, drift back and land, takeoff, climb, drift back and land. Theres no manual to tell you how to fly this way.

Straiga
CFII Airplane Single & Multi-Engine, Helicopter
ATP Airplane Single & Multi-Engine, Helicopter
Flight Engineer Jet [/B]


Wow, I thought that flying backwards stuff was only for Maules & Storches....Personally, I fly the manual because I consider it safe (Theres enough jerks out there in Mooneys & Bonanzas trying to kill me already), but you're a much more advanced pilot than I am.  So far I only do envelope pushing online, but thats good advice about flying the plane rather than the book.  I'm glad I've never been in a situation where I needed to squeeze out the extra performance, but it's good to know it may be there.

Offline Straiga

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Wheel Drag vs. Drag Due to Lift
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2004, 11:29:30 PM »
Well when your a pilot earning a living be prepared to go into some places were there is some what of a landing strip.

Helicopters are worse.

Straiga

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