Author Topic: Lead Turn Defense (Read 808 times)

aknimitz · « **on:** August 08, 2001, 09:55:00 AM »

I think this is a simple question that you guys will have a good answer to...please indulge.

Ok, like v. like plane (lets just say P51s). I see a P51 with smash closing my 6. I enter a gradual turn to tempt him into a lead pursuit to take a deflection shot, and he enters lead pursuit. Then ... what is my next play to get the most efficient reversal?

Nim

Eagler · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2001, 10:18:00 AM »

I am usually hitting enter 3x followed by "O"

Drano · « **Reply #2 on:** August 08, 2001, 11:15:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by aknimitz:
I think this is a simple question that you guys will have a good answer to...please indulge.

Ok, like v. like plane (lets just say P51s). I see a P51 with smash closing my 6. I enter a gradual turn to tempt him into a lead pursuit to take a deflection shot, and he enters lead pursuit. Then ... what is my next play to get the most efficient reversal?

Nim

In this situation I'm usually gonna do a barrel roll or even a single rev of flat scissors just as he'd get to max guns range. It doesn't need to be a high g roll/turn--just enough to blow his gun solution. Try and keep as much of your own E as you can. If he follows you--that's good. Your sucker play worked. If he's faster than you to start off he oughta overshoot and if he hasn't zoomed on ya voila there's your reversal. If he doesn't follow that's OK too--at least you lived thru THIS pass. Take em one at a time and keep bleedin him. Once you get to a co-alt, co-E, similar plane fight its gonna come down to plane configuration and pilotting.

Drano

aknimitz · « **Reply #3 on:** August 08, 2001, 12:53:00 PM »

hehe Eagler

I dont mean that he is closing so fast he has cmopression issues and cannot follow my turn to take a lead pursuit deflection shot.

Ok, maybe my concern was confused by the fact that I said like vs like. I guess what you said Drano would work if it was like v like. Lets instead assume I am a P51 and have a F6F (or N1k2J) closing my six. I dont think your advice here would work because the superior turning plane would easily be able to follow lead pursuit to take a deflection shot. How then do I cause the overshoot and reversal?

Drex showed me something that made good sense, just having a hard time practicing it. What he had me do is enter a mid-G left turn until I could see the plane in my front view. Once lead pursuit is confirmed, and the plane is in firing position, he had me go vertical, this caused the pursuing plane to overshoot under me. I then would roll right, and have an immediate snapshot if the plane was coming back around to the left to pursue.

Does this even make sense? I may have boggled up the teachings of mighty Drex

I had a good film of what I am talkin' about but I reinstalled windows and forgot to save it.

Nim

Urchin · « **Reply #4 on:** August 08, 2001, 01:20:00 PM »

Well, if you get in a position where someone is closing on your 6, but not closing fast enough to easily force an overshoot, you have a few options. These are all dependant on your height and speed.

1. If you really want to play it safe, go full throttle and do a split S. If they follow you down you can roll into a different direction when you get close to pulling out.

2. If you want to be sort of tricky, CUT throttle and do a split S. The enemy will assume you are going balls to the wall, and will jam his throttle forward to pursue. If you can manage to avoid the shot that he WILL get before he passes you, then you have your overshoot.

3. A hard flat turn is also a good defensive manuever- but you have to time it right. To late and you'll be dead, to early and they'll follow you into it. If they follow you into the turn, wait until their nose is almost pointed at you, then reverse the turn. You shouldn't do a flat reversal- you want to either be climbing or diving a little bit, and using your rudder to get out of plane.

OK, i gotta go. I'll post more in a few days when I get home.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #5 on:** August 08, 2001, 01:22:00 PM »

Nim, C has a film of something like what you want to see from the KOTH event.

Curly kept diving on me, and I kept reversing into him. It's from my POV.

If he doesn't have it, I can send it to you later tonite when I get home.
-SW

Nifty · « **Reply #6 on:** August 08, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »

Nim, the reason Drex has you going vertical from the flat turn is that it's taking you out of plane 90 degrees from the attacker, which is good against lead pursuit pulling for a gun solution (at least this is what I got out of reading some of Shaw's book.) however, the rolling to the right would seem to roll your belly to the attacker if he continues his left turn. This would seem to put you in a good position to get separation, and not a snap shot. However, I could be getting things mixed up in my head. This does method does work well for spoiling solutions from lead pursuit. Unfortunately, it only seemed to shake 3 of the 5 that were following me...

The most important part to remember is where the other plane is in relation to you in the lead pursuit. Like Drex said, wait til he's definitely pulling lead and almost even with you. If you pull too early, he can avoid overshooting by switching to a pure or lag pursuit (I think he could, anyways). Pull too late and you're dead.

-ammo- · « **Reply #7 on:** August 08, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »

Nifty your not visualising it correctly. defender is being pursued and turns left in a lateral turn, attacker follow attempting lead pursuit and a quick shot. As soon as it gets close defender rolls his AC back upright and pulls on the sticvk, fairly aggresive. The attacker then will have a very hard time following this ( all this is depending on AC types mind you! if attacker is in a low wing loaded AC then he just might follow defender in his nose up manuever) and will likely overshoot underneath the defender. The defender rolls his AC 180 degrees and pulls back on the stick; then starts tracking the passing attacker and then orients his AC to attempt a snapshot and at a minimum--the roles have reversed. Now if the defender is in a fast AC like a pony, or a diver like the Jug, why do this? Better to nose down and gather speed and extend. If its a low wingloaded AC like an N1K or a Spit then likely you will pull away. If the attacker just has to much smash and you must manuever then it wont take but one barrel roll and a reversal and the defender in the faster AC should be able to leave and setup for better circumstances. Of course this is not as much fun to some guys and they would just like to duke it out

Lots of variable too, altitude of the engagement, How many friendlies? how many enemies? How you jusge the skill of the adversary (a biggy)

Anyway, good discussion. Thx larry

Nifty · « **Reply #8 on:** August 09, 2001, 09:18:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by -ammo-:
Nifty your not visualising it correctly. defender is being pursued and turns left in a lateral turn, attacker follow attempting lead pursuit and a quick shot. As soon as it gets close defender rolls his AC back upright and pulls on the sticvk, fairly aggresive. The attacker then will have a very hard time following this ( all this is depending on AC types mind you! if attacker is in a low wing loaded AC then he just might follow defender in his nose up manuever) and will likely overshoot underneath the defender. The defender rolls his AC 180 degrees and pulls back on the stick; then starts tracking the passing attacker and then orients his AC to attempt a snapshot and at a minimum--the roles have reversed. Now if the defender is in a fast AC like a pony, or a diver like the Jug, why do this? Better to nose down and gather speed and extend. If its a low wingloaded AC like an N1K or a Spit then likely you will pull away. If the attacker just has to much smash and you must manuever then it wont take but one barrel roll and a reversal and the defender in the faster AC should be able to leave and setup for better circumstances. Of course this is not as much fun to some guys and they would just like to duke it out Lots of variable too, altitude of the engagement, How many friendlies? how many enemies? How you jusge the skill of the adversary (a biggy)

Anyway, good discussion. Thx larry

ahhh, you're rolling 180.

I guess what I was doing was thinking that since he's pulling lead on a turn to the left, when you roll level to go vertical, the attacker is somewhere your 6-7 position. I would think that if you rolled 180 in this case, you'd roll left to have better sight of the attacker during the roll (assuming the attacker kept turning left.)

Tac · « **Reply #9 on:** August 09, 2001, 10:47:00 AM »

best defensive tactic:

just type http://www.crosswinds.net/~wraithfleethq/AH/p38comic10.jpg

on the address bar. Stupid crosswinds.

HT please enable HTML on the UBB

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]

StSanta · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2001, 09:02:00 AM »

If the enemy has a lotta smack, increase your turn gradually. If he follows, he'll be bleeding e like a Rikki Lake person eats cake.

Usually the follow for just a bit. I then use the time to get closer to safety.

If he insists on turning with you, a hard break, a roll and break to the other side will throw him off and possibly place you on his 6.