Thoughts needed...

[Hristo]

Here's a question:

You fly at some 5k, moderate speed. In 109, for example. Then you see high P 51D about to bounce you. He is not too high, nor to close. Some d35 behind, a bit higher. So, you have time to do reverse into him, but ending slow and at his alt. Or you can wait and try to make him overshoot. Or you point nose down and try to outrun him   What would you do ?

When I started playing AH, after HTH duels only, I had a philosophy to always turn into the attacker. In ladder duels, when a guy is on your six, it is usually all over. However, speed differences are greater in arena, so he might be too fast and few well timed evasives would make him overshoot. Allowing plane to build up speed then could allow for E parity and now he is on defensive.

If I turn into him, I am too slow to effectively avoid HO if he goes for one. If he is smarter, he will use his higher E to park on my six and not risk HO though. If he does a chandelle, I am again in bad position below him and slow. Only acceleration can pull me out if he is too late in his maneuvering. Still, many AH pilots do the greatest mistake then. They do a kind of Split S and try to come back going high. This usually ends in some rolling scissors end I can say they blew their chances.

If I wait for them to come close and then start throwing off their aim and make them overshoot, I usually get pinged but sooner or later they do overshoot. Redouts and blackouts are good too. Again, it ends usually in scissoring where 109 wins over P 51.

Please, post your tactics...

[Swager]

Hope this helps.  I am not a 109 driver (auger too much).  

Try to reverse into him without gaining alt.  this increase his attack angle. After merge gain alittle alt. He should be zooming up. As he starts his booming down turn into him again.

I try to stay directly below.  If he wants me, he has to come down, and come down fast! Don't worry they'll be down. A good P51 pilot will zoom all day, but sooner or later they'll lose patiences and try to turn.  The 109 has good climbing ability, you can then use that.  Once the enemy is down with you Hristo, you know what to do.  

Trust me I get shot down more than I kill but I have turned the tables on many planes with both a height and speed advantage.

I fly a Spit, the first thing I do if outnumbered and the enemy has a height advantage is to get low (if I am already below 3K) and build speed while Im doing it.  If they want me bad enough they'll be down.  When they dive to attack I turn towards without gaining alt.  This increases their attack angle.  Which is not good for them if I am low.  I may attempt to gain alittle alt in the merge but not enough to lose alot of "E". I just did this the other nite against a P51 and won. He did two good zooms but then tried to turn.  Bad mistake.  I guess he had a date.

Another note.  Even if you do lose and get shot down. You brought your enemy down to a lower alt.  Maybe someone else will get them!    

------------------
Damn Ghostrider!  This bogey is all over me!!

[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 01-05-2000).]

[Extreme]

Hristo...

really..do you need this?  

Anyway, I think we've discussed this online.  Like I said, I rarely, I mean RARELY, split-S.  As you say, you split-s and you're out of the fight really.  It's a safe thing to do, but hey it's fun to stick around and fight.

This is what I sometimes do (not gonna give ya everything now!   ):

If the distances are as great as you say, then I'll dragm a bit with WEP on.  Most guys will dive in after me.  This has the effect of equalizing your E states.

When the guys is about 5k or so away, I do a slow flat turn (slight nose down) and time it so that it's close enough to a HO then followed by an immel. At this point I have a pretty level playing field.

Simple really.  Of course the smart guy wouldn't dive on me, but that's another story and it RARELY happens.

Ex.

[Hristo]

Both great posts, thank you. Both different approaches, and I like them  

However, after reading these, I’d go with following:  

Reverse into the enemy if you will fight from roughly same E level. Establish E parity if possible before the reversal.

However, if enemy is too close for effective reversal (the one which won’t leave you a sitting duck), pick up speed and start evading.

Yep, simple now. Thanks.

[TT]

 Just my 2 cents worth. Always willing to help someone out to kill pansey51,s.

 First of all. The cons hi on your 6 with a faster plane. You die. If he is any good at all.

 However I have killed off a few of the nasty things by doing different versions of the following.

  I trimmed for a climb. Then i pulled hard into an emmelman. MOst p51 guys love to HO so I fake it. At 1200yrds I pulled up like i was going high. Then slam the sitck foward and dive under there belly. Taking a quick snapshot as they cross my gunsite. (Got a few this way. love that 30mm). once under there plane, If they split S, i roll inverted and hit the brakes. Cut throttel and hit rudder hard to bleed speed. I watch them  a moment to see wwhich way there going. Most of them will keep pulling up thinking there going to catch you. But of course they are going faster. So now your on there six.  Ive had two or 3 pull up right in front of me. Bang dead. If they look up and spot u. And they are any judge of speed. They will earn there nickname and runstang. You can chase if you like. but its a waste of time normally. This is all of course only if there are no other baddies around.
 
 If after the pass, the con does a flat turn. you just do a chandell.

 If he climbs, well it starts all over again.

[This message has been edited by TT (edited 01-07-2000).]

[Mr.ED]

The trick when confronted by a higher Pony is to go as low as possible. To Z&B a turn fighter we need 3.5K ground space to manuver in. If you dive out, a Pony going fast is always going to climb back up, or hit the ground.
From the other aspect: If I see a bogie coming up at me, I climb then loop over without flaps, depending on speed will put me in an inverted hang for about 10 seconds.  If you are too close, I roll and exit, and repeat. If you break and have a low "E" state, no matter which way you turn, I'm on your hinnie like Preperation-H.

If I see Spits or 109s below 5K, I let them go. Grass stains are heck to get off the belly! The exception to this is in the valleys of the mountains. The single scarious place for a T&Ber to be. because of the limited side to side manuvering space.

These are 1vs1 encounters. As a knight, I rarely have 1vs1, so I have a whole other bag of tricks!


Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight

"Why ya think they call it a dog & PONY show?"

[combat23]

TACTICS.....?TACTICS.....? YA MEAN I GOTTA LEARN TACTICS ? GOT ENOUGH TROUBLE TRYING TO LAND. Guess I'll try to get a copey of shaw this weekend. If the wife don't work me to death!  Great fun.

See ya on line

[Dingy]

 

The trick when confronted by a higher Pony is to go as low as possible. To Z&B a turn fighter we need 3.5K ground space to manuver in.

Not sure what you are meaning here MrEd.  I usually fly the Stang and I lick my lips the further down the bogies go.  I have successfully used E Fighting tactics against 2 spits which were both at 3K while I was a bit above them.  Their mistake was in immediately split-S'ing after the merge (yes they did go for the head on and no I would not allow it) which puts them at even more of an E disadvantage than they started with.  I usually enter fites at 300MPH IAS so I had a bit of speed and I pulled into a low G climb and then lazily banked to the right, watching the two spits try to climb up to me and then stall out about 1K below me.  I then roll the plane over on its back, pull into the spit which is still floundering below me and light him up for an easy kill.  Extend, pull up, repeat on other spit.  By the time I got to the other spit, he was just about on the deck.  

-Ding

[Mr.ED]

Dingster,

I don't engage below 3-5K for several reasons:
(1) is I like fly 350-400 knot snapshots. My view of most battles is through a 6 inch black out window. Come down fast, fire, go pure vertical.

(2) the ground is too dang close at that speed.
 
(3) no room to extend when those alt monkeys show up.

The turning arc (full loop) of a 51 above 350 is about 3.5k, so thats why I stay above this.


Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight

[TT]

 Remember your ABC,s. Always be climbing.

[Dingy]

 

I like fly 350-400 knot snapshots. My view of most battles is through a 6 inch black out window.

Whoa!  You must have some pretty fast reflexes!  That doesnt leave much time to line up a shot.  Also would seem to have a detrimental effect on SA as you are watching the world through that little tunnel.  

You might want to try this: use your E advantage to try to sucker them up to you.  I find many 109s and spits who are 1000 ft or more below me willing to follow my up into my climb post-merge.  My initial altitude + speed ("E") advantage allows me to top out well after the following planes do so that I could roll over on them while they are helpless.  

Engaging bogies down low like that really relies on good SA to know whether you have enough of an E advantage to try one of those moves or whether its safer to move on.  

TT makes a good point in his ABC's since in a Stang, E is everything.  Too much E can have just as much of a detrimental effect tho as too little E. Personally, I try to get the the bogies to come up to me rather then diving down on them.

-Ding