Author Topic: T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration  (Read 1405 times)

Offline moot

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2004, 08:27:09 AM »
I'll make sure I film it any time I see a tiger and T34 facing off.
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Offline Urchin

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2004, 08:42:09 AM »
OK, the results of our findings.  

At ranges up to around 150 yards, if the T-34 is exactly perpendicular (within about 2 degrees) to the surface it is shooting at on the Tiger (rear or side) the round will not ricochet.  It doesn't seem to do any damage either, which is about right, considering the upper range of its penetration is just about the thickness of the armor on the Tiger.  

Inside of 100 yards, it seems that 3 hits to the same panel (the Tiger has a hexogonal turret, front, 2 front side, 2 rear side, 1 rear "panel") will disable the turret.  It was always 3 hits, every time we did it (many many times).  Again, the T34 shot must come in almost directly perpendicular to the panel you are shooting at, or the round will ricochet off.

Shooting at the rear never knocked out the engine (well, perhaps I just didn't have the patience to do it).  Shooting the side (hull) about 12-14 times seemed to kill the Tiger.  Shooting the Tiger a seemingly random number of times after the turret was disabled killed the Tiger.  These hits didn't necesarily have to be to the same panel you hit 3 times to knock out the turret, sometimes one hit to an undamaged panel will kill the Tiger if the turret is already disabled.  

Should a T-34 catch a Tiger with a roof shot (seemed the threshold was fairly steep, we were unable to replicate this other than by having the Tiger basically tip himself over one of the flat sided hills used to get hull down with), it can kill it with one shot inside of about 1500 yards.. takes 2 at that range.  I don't see this happening in the MA.

I'd still like to have the BR-350P round modelled with a limited number of rounds per load (4 seems nice, and historical :)), simply because I think it is exceedingly unlikely any Tiger would sit still and let a T-34 pound out 3 shots at the exact same panel of the turret without moving either the tank or the turret even slightly.  

It is possible for the T-34 to kill a Tiger however, if the Tiger driver is cooperative enough.

Offline Urchin

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 11:58:58 PM »
I'll vouch for the armor being normal on the Tiger, at least whatever one I'm in.  Had a 500 lb'er kill me earlier.

Offline RT

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2004, 01:41:15 AM »
500 lbers routinely kill tigers, agreed.  T34 should be able to penetrate tiger at point blank range.  Heck, the osty should be able to have a few ap rounds so it can defend itself at point blank ranges too for that matter.  Agree that t34 not very useful with the slow rate of fire and effectiveness of gun.  its main advantage is the quick traverse that permits getting spawn campers set up behind the spawn.

Offline Mugzeee

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2004, 11:28:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Jester,

I hit a Tiger with a 500lb bomb, saw the hit sprite, and got nothing for it.

Now this is truly ridiculas. The damage against tigers with bombs has been a long overdue issue imo. It is very frustrating to see 10 to 20 bombs droped 5 yards from a Tiger only to see it mozey on is merry way.

Offline Urchin

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2004, 12:25:18 PM »
 I've never seen it.  

Ever Tiger I've ever been in died no problem at all, hell, I don't even think the 500 lb bomb that killed me landed on me.  I was moving under some trees when the guy dropped, so he either had fantastically amazing aim with bombs, or the Tiger doesn't have any kind of special immunity.

I think they may have fixed the "Tiger bounce" too.. I detracked a Tiger in a T34, then someone else tracked his other side, later once the Tiger figured out where I went he killed me in the predictable one hit.

Offline MANDO

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 12:55:27 PM »
Four direct AP hits on lateral of M16 and no damage at all. Please, dont start any discussion about GVs whilel GV war is not much more than a joke. An, BTW, my Tigers dead on the very first ping, not that I care at all about it.

Offline Leayme

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 01:05:46 PM »
Given the slow reload time of the T34 gun, the 85 mm of the late war should be available and not be perked, since if you miss or only take out an engine or track, then you had better run, because the amount of time it takes to reload is near the same as it takes a Tiget to rotate it's turret.

The 85mm is more on par with the Tigers' 88 mm and really would only allow a small advantage, since armor and other specifications remain more or less the same.

85mm 215 S-53 or D-5T gun , 55 rounds of ammunition (pick your shots)

"At the end of August, a conference was held at Factory #112. It was attended by the People's Commissar for Tank Industry V.A.Malyshev, Commander of Tank and Mechanized Troops of the Red Army Ya.N.Fedorenko, and ranking members from the People's Commissariat for Armaments. In his introduction, V.A.Malyshev noted that the victory at the Battle of Kursk cost the Red Army a high price:

"Enemy tanks opened fire on ours at distances of up to 1,500 metres, while our 76 mm tank guns could destroy "Tigers" and "Panthers" at distances of only 500-600 metres. Imagine the enemy has a kilometer and a half in his hands, while we have only half a kilometer. A more powerful gun needs to be put into the T-34 quickly."

In actual fact, the situation was significantly worse than Malyshev painted it, though attempts to correct the situation had been undertaken at the beginning of 1943.

As early as the 15th of April, the GOKO, reacting to the appearance of the new German tanks on the Soviet-German front, published order #3187ss (the "ss" suffix means top secret) "Measures for improving anti-tank defenses." This required the GAU (Glavnoye Artilleriiskoye Upravleniye, Chief Artillery Directorate) to put all tank and anti-tank guns then in mass production through range trials, and present findings all within a 10 day period. In accordance with this order, Deputy Commander of Tank and Mechanized Forces Lieutenant-General V.M.Korobkov ordered that a captured "Tiger" be used for the trials, which were conducted from 25 to 30 April at the NIIBT (Nauchno-issledovatel'skii Institut Bronetankovoi Tekhniki, Armored Vehicle Research and Development Institute) proving grounds at Kubinka. The trial results were of little comfort. The 76 mm armored-piercing tracer round for the F-34 gun did not penetrate the German tank's side even as close as 200 metres! The most effective weapon for dealing with the enemy's new heavy tank turned out to be the 85mm 52-K anti-aircraft gun model 1939. It penetrated the 100 mm frontal armor at distances up to 1,000 metres. "

Excerpts are from the http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_85.html

A look at the specifications and armor penetration values

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_4.html

I for one am not surprised at the relative invulnerability of the Tiger, when faced with the T34 mounting the 76mm gun.

Just imagine what will happen if/when they field the Sherman with the low velocity 75mm gun :D

Offline Jester

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2004, 02:43:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
 I've never seen it.


I can produce a boatload of whitnesses for you.

The latest episode, we managed to track a running tiger to stop him with 5" rockets. Then about 5 or 6 of us started bombing him with rockets and 1,000lb bombs repeatedly. He had craters ALL AROUND him with many touching his tank.

I personally bounced at least 4 rockets and a 10+ 40mm hits off him plus several very close hits with 1000 pdrs. Viewed several 5" rockets from Duke glance off with no apparent damage.

Finally, took Bear in a flight of 3 B-24's dropping 1,000 pds to kill him.
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Offline MiloMorai

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2004, 06:50:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leayme
Given the slow reload time of the T34 gun, the 85 mm of the late war should be available and not be perked, since if you miss or only take out an engine or track, then you had better run, because the amount of time it takes to reload is near the same as it takes a Tiget to rotate it's turret.



If you hit the engine on the Tiger then the turret has to be hand cranked since the power drive for turret rotation is gone. But, then if you knock out the engine the shell had to go through one of the fuel tanks, if hit from the side.

It required 720 turns of the handwheel by the gunner to have the turret do a 360. This handwheel was also used for final taget acquisition as the power traverse was not fine enough. Hand traversing required from 1/2lb of force at the 12 o'clock position to over 20-28lb of force at the 3-9 o'clock positions. Power traverse was 6*/sec.

Offline Urchin

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T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2004, 08:18:52 AM »
Oh, I don't doubt it has happened Jester.  I don't think that is a problem with the Tiger so much as a problem with the person inside it (or possibly the person shooting at it).  

If the Tiger really had some kind of uber armor, all the Tigers would be extraordinarily resistant to damage, not just the one freak Tiger.  

I've seen Panzers that took a beating like that and didn't die until another tank upped and shot them a few times.  Hell, I've been IN a Panzer that took something like 19 hits from another Panzer IV to the bellybutton from about 15 yards before it exploded.

I'm not exactly sure why it happens, I think maybe if the recieving GV is dropping a lot of packets it just won't ever get the message that it just got killed by XXXXX (a bomb, a rocket, whatever).

All I can say is no Panzer or Tiger (or T-34 for that matter) has ever lived very long once the bombs started dropping.

I think the longest I've ever made it recently was in a Panzer tucked away inside one of the little red barns near a field I was covering.. I think probably about 6 or 7 planes dropped bombs/rockets all around me, finally someone dropped a couple bombs near me and I blew up.  That probably qualifies as a freakishly tough Panzer, especially since I saw some of the other bombs hit quite close.