Author Topic: ACMs or Gunnery  (Read 5964 times)

Offline ALF

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2005, 03:43:56 PM »
Gunnery is King, ACM is a Prince at best.

WIth good gunnery you dont need ACM because you get most kills in the 1st pass.  One of the reasons I rarely fly the LA7 anymore is because I became amazingly good at off angle shots, and would kill folks crossing me at 90º regularly with very short bursts.

Its also a great talent because there is a huge advantage if you can shoot at 600 yeards -vs- someone who needs 300-400.  When your farther out you have more time to react to your opponents actions and your less likely to overshoot.

Offline Redd

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2005, 03:48:41 PM »
Depends on your flying style doesn't it ?

If you are a typical  fast plane BNZ Hit and  run  (P51,g10,190, Lala) etc  then gunnery is the most important skill by far, as ACM is used sparingly.

If you fly some of the other planes and like to  "fight out" an engagement then you would probably rate ACM as more important  for the reasons stated.
I come from a land downunder

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2005, 03:56:33 PM »
You need both. ACM without gunnery skills means a lot of missed kills, or spending too much time getting the kill, thereby giving other enemies time to get to you first.

Gunnery skills without decent ACM means that you won't get nearly as many opportunities and are more likely to be a victim yourself.

Nonetheless, whatever your opinion, without good SA neither gunnery or ACM skills will keep you alive. SA is the single greatest item separating the really good pilots from the rest. Combine good SA with equally good ACM and gunnery and you will become one of those pilots everyone holds in awe.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Hajo

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« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2005, 04:10:15 PM »
ACM...hands down.

Enables you to get close range shots.
- The Flying Circus -

Offline Charon

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2005, 04:43:25 PM »
The best shot I've seen in the game, and I know there are others, is DMF/Levi/Todd. Now I know from his films that he is very good at the ACM stuff. But, I also know from his films and from personal experience that he is an amazing shot.

He can hit virtually anything that flies within the front 60 degrees of his aircraft within 500 yards using only about as many rounds as are required to kill the plane.  It could be HO, or crossing or anything in between. I might make some of the low percentage crossing shots 10 percent of the time if I lined up on the angle just right and held the trigger down as the enemy flew through the bullet stream. He can seemingly hit the same shot 90 percent of the time and use 10 rounds to get the kill.

I  tangled against the BKs one night and remember identifying him and his spit 5 by the way he was flying. I headed towards him and suddenly he finished off the plane he was engaging and headed towards me giving him a quick passing shot. I knew I was doomed :) I tried to duck in under, as we passed for what was a very low percentage exposure but having seen one of his films I wasn't surprised when I didn't make it.

Again, I know he has his ACM chops down but working to get that shot means something entirely different to a pilot like DMF and someone like me (who has to work an anemy into a "can't miss" 200 yard 6 solution).

Charon

Offline nopoop

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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2005, 02:41:03 PM »
Good topic.

Gunnery hands down. This last tour is a perfect example of it. Not alot of time flying this tour but all the flying was done over a few days one after another. Flying daily gets my ACM up to speed.

This tour I spent all my time in a spit 5 or a seafire. I don't open fire until 200 yards as a rule.

A furball flyer. The more the better.

What is missing is the gunnery. If you are in a multi con envirment the ability to kill is the most important part of the game. If you don't, as more come in, it gets to the point you can no longer handle the numbers and you die. You must kill efficiently. ( see levi )

24 sorties, 11 kills, 11 deaths

16 kills and 14 assists..AT 200 YARDS

1.33 k/d with gunnery 2.491% !!

If I could kill just half the assists I'd be real satisfied. If my gunnery was a measly 7% I'd break out the champagne.

ACM and SA I have a handle on. Givin the fact that I fly in the typical furball way I do ok. The vast majority of deaths are from not killing efficiently/quickly.

Just can't hit squat, tried everything.  Because I can't the numbers become unmanagable. Watched lazs and Hooligan over their shoulder and their deflection shooting is beyond my comprehension. Levi's is from another planet, he just kills them as they come in.

I just don't get it, and if ever I do I'll be one baaaaaad mother..

Don't hold your breath.
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..

Offline Grits

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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2005, 03:30:23 PM »
Charon and Nopoop are right, while Levi's ACM skills are unquestionably superior, his gunnery is what really sets him apart from eveyone else. Its not just Levi either, as much as Shane makes light of his gunnery it is very much above average and IMO it is what makes him as dangerous as he is not his ACM. Most guys if you blow a shot and get over D400 away from them you are safe, but with those guys you are not safe until you are over D800 if even at that. The same can be said of most of the top echelon aces in my experience.

Gunnery is the source of most of my frustration with the game. I miss probably 75% of the shots I get into position for.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2005, 03:32:42 PM by Grits »

Offline Guppy35

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2005, 03:44:08 PM »
Think you guys are missing something, at least when discussing folks like Lev or Shane.

Both Lev and Shane fly it right up the other guys a** before they shoot.  That's classic Richard Bong style and essentially how he described his efforts.  

They don't waste bullets like someone like myself who isn't as good an ACM guy or 'pilot' in general.  

That being said, from the films I've seen of Lev or Shane, or from the times having been on the receiving end of their bullets, they also are good shots as they can hit some tough deflection shots.  

But again those deflection shots are right in their face deflection shots, not the spray and pray shots most of us take from too far out.

In the end the best sticks are blessed with the ACM skills to keep them alive while they get up close and personal before they shoot so accurately.  

Accurate short bursts in close ends up translating into those high kill sorties from guys who aren't doing it by vulching

Dan/Slack
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Offline Estes

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2005, 03:56:06 PM »
ACM.

What good is gunnery if you can't get the shot anyway? :)

You could be the best shot in the game, but it's going to take some ACM to get a shot.

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2005, 05:18:34 PM »
I enjoy flying to within 200 on someone's ***.  I enjoy the pasttime of watching them squirm as I anticipate their moves.  Personally, I believe Gunnery is more important in the MA.  The sight of another con 6.0k out makes you re-think a fight.  

This is like a Corvette / Mustang debate.

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Offline HavocTM

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2005, 10:38:29 PM »
sorry to hijack the thread...

ESTES... shoot me an email, I lost your number.

mpoole (at) bops (dot) us

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Offline Zazen13

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2005, 01:39:16 AM »
Obviously, both are important. In an engagement involving relatively co-E/co-alt state's with one opponent or perhaps 2 vs. 2 ACM is critical as you will likely be afforded the time and  opportunity to execute a traditional merge then manuever into the 'saddle' for a relatively easy shot. In an engagement more complex than that, involving more enemy, the excellent marksmanship ability to quickly dispatch an aircraft with each and every gunnery solution gained no matter how harsh and fleeting is of paramount importance. It is excellent gunnery that can quickly turn an uneven fight into an even one or better when exploited to its maximum potential.

The principle distinction is that excellent gunnery requires only a split second and the harshest of deflection angles to get the kill on your opponent. Good ACM requires significantly more time, especially if the one using the ACM isn't a good shot and/or the opponent enjoys an energy adavantage. This leaves the ACM pilot exposed to the possible addition of more enemy and gunnery passes from his original foe while he seeks the 'saddle', equalized E states and the idiot proof shot.

In the strictest of definitions ACM are largely defensive in nature, unless you are on the deck you cannot kill with ACM alone, yet you can very easily deny the opponent a kill on you for a protracted period, possibly even indefinately. Gunnery on the other hand is offense, pure and simple. An excellent marksman need only have a solution for a fraction of a second and it's over, with an initial energy advantage he will almost always be afforded at least one such opportunity no matter how good you are at ACM's. The best defense is a good offense, great gunnery means faster kills which in turn means you are less likely to get cherry picked, bounced, BnZ'd, gang-banged, etc.



Of course there are those blessed with both skill sets in abundance, some of whom have been mentioned in this thread. Naturally, that is the ideal.

Excellent gunnery is the ability to kill quickly and proficiently from almost any angle at any reasonable distance with any weapon system. Good ACM is the ability to manuever in such a way as to deny your opponent a gunnery solution on you and hopefully produce one for yourself eventually, relative E states not-withstanding. All of us possess ability in both of these areas to some extent. Recognizing your strengths and maximizing them through engagement and plane choice is the difference. Also, recognize your weaknesses and work on strengthening them and minimize their negative impact by engaging in such a way and with a plane that does not further exacerbate those weaknesses.

Anecdotal history from WWII gives thousands of examples of this. Each successfull pilot had a 'killing blow' as it were, a method of attack and fighting that afforded them, personally, the greatest chance of success with their particular plane and their individual aptitudes and God-given talents. Aces High does a great job of recreating this 'feel'. As a direct result of this, almost all of us become 'niche' flyers to some extent, choosing to approach air combat in a way most conducive to our individual success, talents and  personal enjoyment of the game.

Just as in AH there were the Zeke-type pilots who used the high and low yo yo's up close and personal to great effect. There were the 109 pilots who used altitude and the devastating 20mm laden BnZ pass. There were the P47/P51/F4U pilots who used power dives and zooming spiral climbs to energy fight the opponent into submission. It is the amalgam of all of these seemingly disparate methods, aptitudes and proclivities that makes WWII air combat history and AH so very interesting, paradoxically complex and enthralling.

Personally, to answer the original poster. I would have to say gunnery is the most critical in the MA. I only say this because, as mentioned above, ACM's alone are only most crucial to success (defined as destroying your adversary without yourself being destroyed) in a 1 vs. 1 or 2 vs. 2 co-e/co-alt similiar plane-type situation. Those situations are exceedingly rare in the very finite confines of the populous MA. In a crowd, where there is not likely sufficient time to safely work angles on a single opponent for a good gunnery solution or the aircraft in question have widely varying performance characteristics, marksmanship ability is master.



Zazen
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 04:43:00 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Schaden

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2005, 04:44:45 AM »
What Zazen said.

Btw in the stats as a percentage what does the 0.080 mean actually - does that mean a hit on the taget 8% of the time?

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2005, 05:27:59 AM »
Yes friend Schad, 0.080 would be 8%. 0.80 would be 80%..

Offline TexMurphy

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ACMs or Gunnery
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2005, 05:43:39 AM »
I have to say ACMs as well.

If you can manouver your self into position for a unmissable shot then you are gonna down planes.

The longer you stay alive in a fight the more kills you will get. If you just have good gunnery then you wount stay alive for long.

Imho the 3 most important skill sets, ranked, are:

1. Situation Awarness.
2. ACM
3. Gunnery

Tex