Author Topic: Some La-7 questions (Read 648 times)

MiloMorai · « **on:** January 02, 2005, 12:09:55 AM »

1. I have seen it claimed that the La-7 had structural problems.

The only problem I have come across is 1 batch that had a wing attachement point problem.

2. Did the La-7 have engine reliability problems, especially when using 'WEP'?

There was a fight between a La-7 and some American P-51s in 1945. The P-51s mistook the La-7 for a Fw190 and the Soviet pilot had to shoot down some P-51s.
Can any supply details of this combat? Soviet pilot? place? American unit?

Tilt · « **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2005, 06:13:54 AM »

Firstly we have to understand that all Lavochkins were basically held together with glue.

Secoundly we have to understand that the expected service life of lavochkins was 6 months.....they were basically disposable fighter planes.

However they proved to be immensly robust when propoerly manufactured......

and there is the rub

There are various accounts of structural failure in La5's and La7's due to shoddy manufacturing dicipline. The best recorded investigation is by the Czech air force who whith drew all lavachkins from service in 46 (for fear of structural degradation of the untreated wood/ply used for construction)

A plane was tested to destruction and found to be still well above all safety limits. The La7's were re introduced.

All Lavochkins were flown with one eye on the temperature guages and the cooling flaps and vanes were under pretty constant adjustment.

The La7 was prone to pick up dust thru its air intake and this caused engine/supercharger failures.

Russian ace Kozhedub official tally does not include an incident where (apparantly) he shot down two P51D's.

The story has some potential holes but is as follows........

April 45 Kozhedub goes to the aid of some B17's (presumably over/near Berlin) under attack from LW fighters.

He is then engaged by two P51D's the leader apparantly firing from "some distance". Kozhedub then turns and performs a HO (refered to as head long) damaging the leaders wingman who retires smoking (later to bail). He then attacks the leader destroying this P51 during which he notices that they are indeed US aircraft.

He was sworn to secrecy.....the story never coming out until after his death when his widow made it public revealing kuzhedubs gun camera film as proof.

Questions are

What were La7's and B17's doing at similar altitudes over /near Berlin. (possible tho)

How did anyone know the P51d wingman bailed if this story was secret?

Gun cameras in Lavochkins?

Rasker · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2005, 09:35:35 AM »

Toward the end of the war encounters between Russian and US aircraft were common over Berlin and friendly fire incidents were also common. After one such incident, Stalin notified the US that the surviving Russian pilots involved had been shot, and he suggested that the same be done to the surviving Americans.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:50:33 AM »

Thanks.

What are the details of the P-38 vs Soviet fighter. All I can remember is the combat being after the P-38s attacked a Soviet convoy killing a General.

Kweassa · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2005, 05:29:54 AM »

That's interesting.

Rasker, if such thing really did happen, what was the reasoning behind the executions?

Simaril · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2005, 06:14:55 AM »

Stalin?
Reasoning?

Tilt · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:46:39 PM »

There are other well documented encounters between the VVS and USAF.

Most famous was that of Koldunov (8th ranking allied ace later Marshal Avaisti of the Soviet airforce [highest rank]) Twice hero of the Soviet Union.

Far from being shot......... on the 7 Nov 44

He was in charge of a group of Yaks scrambled against 60 P38's of the 15th AAF 82nd air Group over Belgrade that had just mistakenly struck a Russian armoured column. Killing General Kotov.

As the Yaks approached the P38's turned to attack and shot down one.....

Combat was then joined Koldunov claiming 3 victims (Although AAA may have had some part in it)

It was then Koldunov who identified the lead 38 and slipped into "formation" with him to establish identification.

US later gave an appology.

Koldunov was also responsible (whilst Marshal Aviasti) in the shooting down of the Korean 747 airliner but met his career end at the hands of 19 year old student Mathias Ruust who penetrated air defences under his authority to land his Cessna in Red Square.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:58:39 PM »

82nd FG and their P38s mistakenly hit a Soviet convoy on November 7, 1944.

Yaks protecting the convoy bounced the 38s and in the ensuing dogfight and the 82nd had two 38s downed with the pilots killed and, at least according to the 82nd FG history, shot down a couple of Yaks.

March 18, 1945 the 359th FG and their P51s got involved in a fight with Russian Yaks and LA5s. It was after this incident that Stalin supposadly has the Russian pilots shot and suggests that Roosevelt do the same.

One US pilot was court martialed but no one was shot. The story, according to the 359th FG history was he was fined a carton of cigarettes and sent home. His was the only combat film that survived the encouter, the other films "disappearing" during development.

Dan/Slack

gripen · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2005, 05:08:43 PM »

The LaGG-3 was originally stressed for breaking load factor 14 according to Russian documentation and at least here in Finland the LaGG-3 and it's developements were known as very strong airframes.

gripen

Angus · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2005, 08:21:52 PM »

Well, the Mossie was glued together.....

Anyway, even RAF Spitfires almost mixed it with russian yaks, and some got jumped by Yugoslavian ones AFAIK....

Cloudy skies, no harmonized ground control, and tonnes of un-coordinated aircraft, what would you expect?

dankes · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2005, 01:48:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Thanks.

What are the details of the P-38 vs Soviet fighter. All I can remember is the combat being after the P-38s attacked a Soviet convoy killing a General.

Funny.

Michael Bykov just published archival material about this incident.

http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/3/co/63835.htm

Hopefully you can read Russian. (Babelfish sucks in this case)

MiloMorai · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2005, 03:32:24 AM »

Dankes, you mean this report?

COMBAT REPORT, headquarter 866IAP
07.11.1944 16.00

07.11.1944 at 12.50 group of 12 planes type “Lightning“ attacked troops of 3d corps of Ukrainian front, moving on the road from Nish to the westbound direction at Chamurlia region.
4 planes in formation were making an attack one by one diving from H400m leveling at 50m. Two groups of 4 were circling overhead at 1500m. After the first assault AA opened fire and shoot down 1 plane which crashed 1km North of the airfield.
At 13.00 pair of Yak-9 866IAP on duty took off, leader Lt. Krivonogih wingman 2d Lt.Shipulya. At 13.05 6 Yak-9 took off as well, commander Cpt.Bondar, 1st Lt. Surnev, 1st Lt. Zheleznov, 1st Lt.Poziba, Lt.Zhestovsky, 2d Lt.Serdyuk.
At 13.10 took off pair Yak-3 of Cpt.Koldunov, wingman 2d Lt.Krasyukov

The first pair after airborn making right hand turn started approaching to 4 P-38 involved in assault. 2 P-38 attacked pair of Lt.Krivonogih. 2d Lt.Shipulya attacked P-38 making secondary assault of the troops and set it in fire, P-38 with 40 degrees angle ran into the ground 500m North of the AF where it burned in flame.

Lt.Krivonogih while defending from 2 P-38 in the attack making vertical maneuver burned one of them, which came down in flame to the forest 8-10km to the North of the AF. During attack on the next P-38 Lt.Krivonogih got it’s tail, AA opened fire to both of them. Came to the bursts of AA plane of Lt.Krivonogih came in smoke, made a split and with an angle of 80-85 degrees ran into the ground 3km Noth-East of the AF.
Cpt.Bondar after airborn identified planes as American type P-38 Lightning and was trying to avoid dogfight maneuvering vertically and horizontally to give P-38 no opportunity to open fire to Yaks. 1st Lt. Surnev by rocking the wing let P-38 know they were friendly after that P-38 stopped attack and got away.
2d Lt.Serdyuk took off alone after all fighters and was being attacked by P-38 straight away. Avoiding the fight he saw another P-38 attacking Yak-9 and got in a hurry to help the Yak. After his attack P-38 fall down in flame 1km North-West of the AF.
Next Serdyuk attacked one more P-38, gave two long volleys from both cannon and machine-gun. P-38 came in smoke and flew away at North-West bound direction with descent.
2km to the North of Nish Lt.Zhestovsky was fighting with pair of Lightnings, attacked one of them from behind above side, P-38 came in smoke after the gun hit and flew away at North-West bound direction with descent.
The second Lightning attacked Yak of Lt.Zhestovsky and set it in fire. Lt.Zhestovsky got bullet’s hit to his right leg, right side and a finger of his right hand. He bailed out and grounded 8km North to Nish. His Yak burned completely.
1st Lt.Poziba after airborn climbed 2000m and started to form up with group of 12 P-38 coming to the airfield with heading 100. By rocking the wing he let them know he was friendly and pointed to the airfield. The Lightnings didn’t open the fire, turned back and flew away with heading 240. At the same time upto 60 P-38 were approaching from the west, they met the first group of P-38, turned back and disappeared in westbound direction.
Lt.Krasyukov after departure identified P-38s as American and didn’t start combat. He observed Yak-9 coming down in flame 1km North of the AF.

In this dogfight Lightnings downed 2 Yak-9. 2d Lt.Shipulya was KIA, Lt.Zhestovsky bailed out, Lt.Krivonogih KIA in friendly AA fire.
5 P-38 Lightning were downed by our fighters and AA.

Tilt · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2005, 07:31:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Dankes, you mean this report?

COMBAT REPORT, headquarter 866IAP
07.11.1944 16.00

Interesting I have copies of the US "report" attached to its appology and an account from Kuldonovs side which lacks the detail of this report although it does suggest that Kuldonov was not first on the scene........... despite his victory claims.

Note Koldunov and his wing man were the only ones in Yak3's

dankes · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2005, 07:54:20 AM »

@MiloMorai

yup, that's it

866IAP lost 4 a/c, 2 or 3 from P-38s and 1 or 2 from friendly AA fire, claimed 5 kills, 82FG later reported 3 losses, right?