Author Topic: Another hornets nest  (Read 1941 times)

Offline Seeker

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Another hornets nest
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2005, 08:23:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by jigsaw
HiTech: I think I see where we're both having some confusion. Hopefully I can clear it up. I've been discussing this from the standpoint of having only one engine working, which is probably the root of confusion.

Torque itself, indeed does not change. But, because the engines are no longer on the longitudinal axis, if you lose an engine, torque now wants to rotate about the CG.

What causes the roll is a combination of "A" and "T" in PAST.  "P" and "S" are yaw. The diagram is discussing only how torque is contributing.  I've got diagrams for the other three as well. This is why I suggested talking to a MEI. Vmc is much easier to explain in person.

Let me know if this makes sense.



The important (and obvioux and boring) thing is that you agree that a piston engine turning a propeller will have an opposite and equal effect to the propeller (i.e. torque; I do hope no one's made a gear box where the prop spins opposite to the engine; we'd never finish this...)

The interesting point is that once you agree that the #4 engine on a Lanc produces just as much torque as any other Merlin does in a Spit or Stang;where is that torque manifested?

I don't pretend to understand the physics; but I do know that pilots felt the effect; citing take off's that had the whole four engine bomber being a helpless victim to torque; albiet manifested in an unfamiliar way.

Offline Straiga

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Another hornets nest
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2005, 10:09:21 PM »
Im back good post guys.

Torque is always present from the prop and engine.

If you have the right engine running and the left engine dead. There is torque present but the combonation of the engine, prop torque and the aerodynamics effects on the airframe fight each other. Aerodynamics wont alow the engine, prop torque to prevail into a rolling moment. So best it can do is a yawing torque moment. When you lose the aerodynamic force namely rudder and airleron control is when the torque still present get stronger against the airframe to be dominate again. This starts the left wing to drop and the right wing to climb in the rolling axis. But as rudder is getting less effective it is still trying to over come torque. This start a left turning force in yaw first then translating into a roll force.

These are the way multi-engines fly. I have never had to use airleron or airleron trim on a multi-engine airplane to counter prop, engine torque. Rudder is the dominate flight control on a multi-engine for directional control.

Turbines

Would you say that any rotating mass has torque assosiated with.

Turbo jets, the main thing you want to do for more efficience turbo jet is to get the air in the intake as straight as possible and get the air out as straight as possible.

If the air in not channeled straight into the air intake this air it will be turbulent and can cause a compressor stall at the N1 stage. The air enters the N1 compressor and rotates as it is drawn into the different stages of the compressor, even though the compressor stage blades counter rotate. also the air is heated by the friction of the compression. This air then vunneled out to the outer section the the compressor to enter the combustian cannister. At this stage you can take "P" air of the turbine also known as Bleed air.
As the air enters the cannisters its air flow in turned 180 degrees in direction before the air and fuel is mixed. The air and fuel is mixed and fired off by the ignitors. As the explosive gas expands this gas is rotated another 180 degrees in flow and is exhausted on to the N2 stage turbine blades. Now these blades do not counter rotate, there is a series of stators and turbine blades. When the gas flow, flows across the turbine and stator blades this inturns (through a shaft) turns the N1 compressor blade section. Now as this gas flow is directed to harness all the available energy across the turbine section it is also straighted out to exhaust as straight as possible.
There is torque in the N1 stage, N2 stage on the compressor shaft. Plus the acceleration of the rotating mass as a hole there is torque present. Suck squeese burn and blow.

Yes jet airplanes do have torque that can pull an airplane to the left or right. It depends on the turbine being used also. It acks like a gyro effect. On engine spool up the B767 pulls to the left.

As for torbo props, the same goes as in the above discription applies.  Its still is a jet engine but with a prop connected to it. You also get a jet thrust from the exhaust from the turbo prop. The exhaust on some turbos have the exhaust coming out forward from the engine through exhaust headers and the air intake is at front of the cowling but air enters at the back of the turbine. The engine is turned backward. The allisons on the C-130 the air enters at the front and exhausted to the back of the turbine.

The props are either attached to a gear box or not.

The torque comes mainly from the prop airstream.

Straiga
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 01:02:19 AM by Straiga »