Author Topic: Need help in Pony  (Read 1113 times)

Roman

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Need help in Pony
« on: May 11, 2000, 12:03:00 AM »
Yikes!  I need some help in flying Pony. I do fly it at as a B & Z aircraft, but I just never seem to be effective. Poor gunnery and lack of manuver skills pretty much make me someone else's kill streak statistic. Before I give up I thought I would ask for some training help. I can use any advice as if I was just a beginner (been in AH for 3 months). I figure I need to start over almost from scratch with this plane. I probably have a LOT of bad habits of which I am not even aware. I am on West Coast time and I am generally free from 8 till 10 at night. If any trainers are availabale at these times (or can suggest a reasonable time in proximity to these hours) I would be greatly appreciative for any instruction in the training arena. Thanks to the community in advance. The guys here really are great.

Roman
"The humbled grasshopper"

Offline Soulyss

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2000, 02:20:00 AM »
Hiya Roman I'm west coast too and most nights (save tuesday) I'm usually around and I'll be happy to pass anything along.  I'm by no means and expert and I'm currently wallowing in the mires of a flying and shooting slump that seems to have no end maybe trying to show someone what NOT to do might help me out.  If you see me around throw me a message or somthing and I'll help ya out if I can.  You can also reach me at kalger@sfsu.edu

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[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 05-11-2000).]
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Offline Vermillion

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2000, 06:28:00 AM »
Don't give up on your valiant steed yet Roman  

Flying the Pony takes patience, skill, and yet more patience. But once you master these skills, a Pony driver is untouchable.

Sharky is the trainer that comes immediately to mind when it comes to the P-51, but they are all very good pilots that can teach you what you want too know.

A couple of Pony tips (very basic ones)
1.)Take off from a rear field, away from the fight. I take 50% fuel, and x2 drop tanks. One drop tank I drop right away, the other should be plenty to get you to 25,000ft and to the combat zone.  Then you can drop the other and never worry about fuel.

2.)Never enter the combat area without at least 22,000 ft under you !

3.)Never turn more than 180 degrees (preferably 90 degrees) to get a shot, extend and come back later.

4.)If the fight starts to get below 10,000ft start to plan your escape strategy. If your below 5,000ft you should have already run away  

5.)Set all guns to convergence of 300. Never fire until the range indicator reads under 400, then lay on the fire button until you break off. Very little lead is required with .50's.

6.) When in doubt, RUN AWAY !!!!  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-11-2000).]

Offline Hristo

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2000, 06:36:00 AM »
Never knew P 51 has a radial engine, Verm  

Offline Lephturn

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2000, 07:52:00 AM »

The pony is a nice bird.  It is a capable BnZ fighter, but also one of the best E fighters ever built.  Use the verticle and conserver your E at all costs.  Stay fast, speed is life!

Verm had some great tips.  One note about fuel... it's not as flexible as drop tanks, but I tend to use 75%-100% fuel internal and no drops.  The Pony will still fly all day on 100%, and you will climb much faster without the drops.  If you have more than 50% fuel when you engage in combat you either have not started from a field far enough back, or you should have taken less gas.  Again, not as flexible a strategy as running drop tanks (you can instantly be at 50% fuel if you need to be) but it will shorten your time to altitude and time to the target area.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
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Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
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"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

Offline Vermillion

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2000, 08:17:00 AM »
I may not be a real man Hristo   But at least I ain't no Nancy Boy Sissyfire pilut either  

Now of course, if they would ever bring a comparable Hog to AH (F4U-4) or a nice big fat Jug (P-47N).... well then I might just upgrade my Manly Status again.  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Offline Spatula

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2000, 08:44:00 PM »
I'm just starting to get the 'hang' of the pony. I used to fly the spit 9 all the time. I decided to chop and change between lots of diff planes depending on situation and to get an apprication of all the planes modelled. But now when i reach for my 'standard' ride 9 times out of 10 it aint the spit anymore. More often the pony or lightning.
Anyways, if i can offer one piece of indespencible advice it would be SPEED. If you keep yur speed well up you can zoom up higher, extend faster, and run away from anything if it looks like yur in the toejame. Dont try to turn with other planes just use speed to zoom and extend and try to catch them slow. Try keep an average min speed of about 250 mph or better. Be smooth and easy on the controls and you'll keep ya speed easy.

Now i dont get as many kills per sortie, but statistically (done some small stats), im 3 times more likely to die in a spit compared to a pony (based on my tour 3 stats).

Speeeeeeed it's the pony BEST asset  


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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula

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=357th Pony Express=

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 05-11-2000).]
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Offline Sharky

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2000, 10:12:00 AM »
Hi All,

First sorry I haven't been around much but my joystick seems to have gone south on me.  I'm still in the process of trying to determine if it is the stick or the game port on the sound card.

Anyway, Roman,
The number one trick to flying the Mustang is patience.  Other than perhaps the FW190 the Mustang requires the most patience of any of the current plane set.

Contrary to popular belief the Mustang actually turns very well, But! (you knew there was going to be a but)  It's best turn speed is significantly higher than planes like the Spitfire.  For instance I can easily turn inside a Spitfire if he is at 100 ias and I'm at 250 ias, however I can only do it for about 90 degrees of turn or so.  After that the Mustang will slow to the point where it becomes very unstable and will snap off into a spin.

As many have already said, the Mustangs strongest suit is speed.  Not only her ability to achieve high speed but that the Mustang handles extremely well at high speed.  You have probably noticed that the Spitfire gets very heavy on the controls at any speed above about 350 ias, while the Mustang is still responding very well to the controls at 400-450ias.

One thing you have to be careful of is, because currently prop drag is not modeled in Aces High (hint hint HT)   once you get the Mustang rolling down hill speed can get away from you pretty quickly.

Again keep her speed up, keep your manuvers in the vertical and only turn her when she's rolling along at 250ias and above.  And above all when flying the Mustang, remember to keep your control inputs smooth and gentel.  The Mustang will not respond to a heavy hand.

If you would like to get together in the TA just drop me a line at ftgcss@home.com and we'll set up a time that is convenient to both of us. (I hope to have my jstick probs resolved today) Sharky<----- Looks in wallet, man that going to leave a mark  
 
Sharky

Offline humble

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
I think a lot has been covered already, and I agree sharky is the guy to see beyond the "basic" elements of pony driving. I think i have a old 3 kill clip that i sent to sharky and a couple other trainers for review on a specific move. I'll send it if you want..and I find it.

Anyway, The biggest issues for a pony driver are those involving E vs angles management. Until the light goes on your either to fast for a good shot or get caught with just not enough E to finish em off. I see the same specific issues in 90% of the pilots I work with...and these are magnified in the pony.

1) viewing the enemy as a "target" ...you need to fly the pony into place...dont ever set up for a snap shot unless your gonna extend..the lose of angles and increase in E as you "freeze" your setup will kill you later. If you pass on your initial "shot" and use out of plane lag pusuit to maintain positive positioning...you'll get a better shot later.

2) Use vertical elements in all your moves...never fly a plane "flat" except in very specific circumstances...again this is critical in the pony.

3) Never ever go "under" a con in a pony until you really have a feel...this is fundemental to all planes in a positive E state (far as i'm concerned) but a rule in a pony.

Last and most important...the pony is a true E fighter...until your a real hot stick in one...Use it that way, only attack with E...attack from the top to con to top with a 2-3 pass setup (ideally less than 3.0 max seperation at all times) looking for a pony speed of 250 vs 150 for con as he breaks on 2nd or 3rd evasive. If you cant kill him in 3 tries...extend...no exceptions.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Minotaur

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2000, 11:23:00 AM »
As to the P-51's turn...

I was doing base defense, the fight was on the deck a little ways from the base I was defending.  I was very out numbered and often I had 3 bandits lining up on me most of the time.    

Then I did a 3 turn fight with a Pony and lost.  I was in a Spit V, and relying soley on turning very hard and not stalling at 50' off the deck.
 
We started with a HO merge.  This silly Pony was actually going to turn with me, just what I wanted.  I licked my chops.  We did 1 1/2 figure eights, then I got shot down.  The Pony had gotten its guns around I did not.  The seperation never exceeded d2.0.

I little over-confidence in your turn rate will always get you shot down...

Salute Hangtime!  

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Mino
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Offline Lephturn

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2000, 01:17:00 PM »
You hit the nail on the head there.  The SPit V has a good turn radius, but at that speed not a good rate in comparison to the Pony.  It sounds like he played the rate game and got you, though I would be surprised if he wasn't using yoyo's to utilize an energy advantage.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/


"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

Offline Hangtime

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2000, 03:50:00 AM »
I'll turn with anything.. but thats 'cause I'm nuts. You'd be surprised how many times the turnfighter is stunned by an agressive wicked fast attack. There's no room for half measures when the other guy can out turn you; out accellerate u and out climb you and he's close enuff to reach out and touch you with those cannons. Going for the throat is the only option when yah can't extend.. and I was too slow to leave that fight.

Initial turn at speed with the pony is good. Very good if you have a significant speed offset and can get outta plane on the initial merge. The kicker in the pony is that when you wanna cash the chips; you can haul her around slow and inside, timing the flaps and decelleration (cashin the chips) into a tighter turn than expected... but just once. Don't miss the shot.. if the spit or nik gets out the other side after you cashed in the E yer porked.  

Salute Mino! I got lucky. Real lucky.  

Hang

 
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Offline Minotaur

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2000, 10:40:00 AM »
LOL  

Those particular sorties my objective was to get anything that attacked me slow and on the deck.  I had no thoughts of ever surviving any sortie.

I had already trapped several planes there.  I just love inching my way up on an F4's arse and letting him have it at d50-100 as they try desperately to escape.

Hangtime I was going to do it with you also.  When you outturned me, that got the "Ole Tuning Fork in My Pants" a humming.  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

Offline humble

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Need help in Pony
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2000, 07:47:00 PM »
Roman,

I found the clip in question and am sending it to you...this is a far cry from hang..wardog etc...but a good idea of where to start.

The clip actually starts 30 sec in so you miss a part of setup...a couple of comments:

1) the planes are taken in order of threat (top to bottom)

2) each plane only gets one hosing at a time...no chasing a wounded bird

3)there's a brief "time-out" between attacks to check the views

4) The 1st two attacks are at 0% throttle and all three are "top to bogie"...I'm never under any con except the 109 at end

5) I'm never pointed at the con till I'm actually ready to shoot...i.e. the con is never a "target".

6) the gunnery is close to 100% since the con's are all "hanging" more or less...they are at a state of almost zero E so not able to manuver well at all

7) Nowhere do I "outfly" anyone...nothing near the edge...no stall warnings..no blackout etc.

The only really weak part in the clip is my SA on the 109...after the 205...you can see the closure rate of the 109 before I setup on the spit...I chopped on the out of plane move to setup the spit in order to create more of a "tracking" shot vs a true snap shot. When I went vertical on the 109 I topped out a little soon...current flight model and i'd pop the flaps there and hang the edge a bit...back then the pony would "flip" to a left hand spin in that position to suddenly.

Anyway the clip gives you an idea of how to use pony as an E fighter.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson